Banks no longer posting deposit rates?

   / Banks no longer posting deposit rates?
  • Thread Starter
#71  
I appreciate various points... whether I'm in agreement or not.

I feel it is beneficial to see how others come to different conclusions looking at the same data.

I'm in uncharted waters... most of my good friends are much old than I am and as a child... I spent a lot of time with my Grandmother and she had a way of making history real...

She and my Grandfather married on the eve of the Great Depression... everything was humming along and the future for American never was brighter... their entire world changed and it is something you never forget...

She became a cash and carry kind of consumer... too many of her friends lost everything... many due to wild speculation and others were brought down with it.

I'm grateful for the information passed on to me from my elders...

One thing I have come to believe is that each generation feels they are in uncharted territory... in a way they are right... but, so is the saying that History Repeats Itself...

Most of us are just trying to navigate the best we can while the old rules, if not thrown out... have certainly been suspended...

Hope we can still feel free to exchange ideas... I've learned a lot from my time here...
 
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   / Banks no longer posting deposit rates? #72  
What you say about each generation facing changes/difficulties is true

My fear is that what we're facing now is an entire Western World phenomenon where Central Banks all over the world are forced to print money due to the excessive leverage/credit created by the last generation.

The excessive credit/leverage of the last 30-40 years can not be denied. We've hit a brick wall and the only politically expedient thing to do is to print our way out of it as nobody wants austerity...

Now, my conclusion from all of this is why would anyone in their right mind hold something (cash) that can be printed up on a politician's/banker's whim? We're talking about interest rates in the lowest of low percentiles while inflation (mostly due to money "printing") is way over that.

I bring up gold and try to bring up facts as to why I recommend it and someone else states his opinion with nothing substantial to back it up...I could be wrong...but I could be right. At least I have something to back my thinking up instead of just saying stuff to say it.
 
   / Banks no longer posting deposit rates? #73  
I appreciate vary points... whether I'm in agreement or not.

I feel it is beneficial to see how others come to different conclusions looking at the same data.

I'm in uncharted waters... most of my good friends are much old than I am and as a child... I spent a lot of time with my Grandmother and she had a way of making history real...

She and my Grandfather married on the eve of the Great Depression... everything was humming along and the future for American never was brighter... their entire world changed and it is something you never forget...

She became a cash and carry kind of consumer... too many of her friends lost everything... many due to wild speculation and others were brought down with it.

I'm grateful for the information passed on to me from my elders...

One thing I have come to believe is that each generation feels they are in uncharted territory... in a way they are right... but, so is the saying that History Repeats Itself...

Most of us are just trying to navigate the best we can while the old rules, if not thrown out... have certainly been suspended...

Hope we can still feel free to exchange ideas... I've learned a lot from my time here...

my parents grew up in depression era also. I learned my habit of saving till i can afford it then buy it from them.

The wife and I do not believe in the instant gratification gained by credit cards and loans (cept for original house purchase). My current tractor and implements waited until i saved up the necessary spare cash to do the deal.
 
   / Banks no longer posting deposit rates? #75  
You seem to make alot of sense, but your take on gold falling like a rock, is in great contrast with most conventional wisdom.
Not saying it's not true, just because everyone else thinks something will happen doesn't mean it will. But that means you are either very enlightened or just wrong, I'm not suggesting one or the other. A different perspective though that's for sure.

I follow the conventional thinking that gold would rise in cost during a SHTF scenario. But then what, we know what goes up must come down eventually.
It is a rare commodity, but is it a valuable commodity?
I don't see any great increase in gold prices (or great decline), since most fear is in check for now. If some calamity occurred I would expect there to be great demand for it, at least initially.

JB

If chaos reigns and no country is on top then all material things will be worthless. It will be us against everyone else.

Gold falls when SHTF because banks think that they can survive the chaos so they sell everything not nailed down, including gold. At this very moment, European banks are selling everything they can in terms of real estate holdings, etc to raise cash. Gold is not immune to this strategy.

Gold is a hedge against volatility and is not an investment. Gold does not do anything but go up and down. Why not play the VIX? The VIX is the measure of short term volatility in the market and is as about as useful as gold in real terms. Look up VXX and see what I mean. The market is just a bunch of volatility and we can all invest in anything we want. Remember, if anyone ever complains about derivatives and options, just remind them we all started it (Farmers). LOL

To see how gold can fall, just look at the period from mid-August, 2011 through September (actually 10/3/2011 when the US market bottomed). During this period, the market fell, plus gold fell. This was when everyone expected a large European bank to fail (it almost did). Gold FELL when things were bleakest? European banks were selling to raise cash because the overnight lending had frozen again (a la Lehman 2008).

Gold just goes up and down. It may continue up as things improve because investors fear inflation, not catastrophe. When the SHTF, gold will fall, IMO, because there will be DEFLATION, not inflation.

Submitted by KansasFarmer (can't get my login changed).
 
   / Banks no longer posting deposit rates? #76  
If chaos reigns and no country is on top then all material things will be worthless. It will be us against everyone else.

Gold falls when SHTF because banks think that they can survive the chaos so they sell everything not nailed down, including gold. At this very moment, European banks are selling everything they can in terms of real estate holdings, etc to raise cash. Gold is not immune to this strategy.

Gold is a hedge against volatility and is not an investment. Gold does not do anything but go up and down. Why not play the VIX? The VIX is the measure of short term volatility in the market and is as about as useful as gold in real terms. Look up VXX and see what I mean. The market is just a bunch of volatility and we can all invest in anything we want. Remember, if anyone ever complains about derivatives and options, just remind them we all started it (Farmers). LOL

To see how gold can fall, just look at the period from mid-August, 2011 through September (actually 10/3/2011 when the US market bottomed). During this period, the market fell, plus gold fell. This was when everyone expected a large European bank to fail (it almost did). Gold FELL when things were bleakest? European banks were selling to raise cash because the overnight lending had frozen again (a la Lehman 2008).

Gold just goes up and down. It may continue up as things improve because investors fear inflation, not catastrophe. When the SHTF, gold will fall, IMO, because there will be DEFLATION, not inflation.

Submitted by KansasFarmer (can't get my login changed).

Very good points. If i was interested in getting into the rental market right now, i would be picking up 2-3 nice empty used homes here near me.

I went to bid on a foreclosure just down the road, but the bank kept bidding it up higher during the auction cause they did not want to take too big of a hit. I stopped bidding on it.

I was looking at 3 different 3 year old houses in Hayden Id (about 25 miles from me) that are being offered shortsale for 100 grand range. They were selling in the 170 range 3 years ago.

I was very tempted to pick some up, but being that far away it is hard to keep an eye on them.

Still not sure. The prices are still rock bottom low here, and the wife and I are toying with picking up some rentals.

With the banks only paying 0.25% on 100,000 thats about $250/year in interest. If i can pick up these houses and rent them in the 500-600 range, thats alot better return on an investment.

I think real estate is way better hedge on inflation then gold ever will be. In the long run i doubt anyone has ever lost money in real estate UNLESS they bought at the top of a market cycle. Now were near a bottom of a cycle. Its probably a great time to buy.
 
   / Banks no longer posting deposit rates? #77  
If chaos reigns and no country is on top then all material things will be worthless. It will be us against everyone else.

Gold falls when SHTF because banks think that they can survive the chaos so they sell everything not nailed down, including gold. At this very moment, European banks are selling everything they can in terms of real estate holdings, etc to raise cash. Gold is not immune to this strategy.

Gold is a hedge against volatility and is not an investment. Gold does not do anything but go up and down. Why not play the VIX? The VIX is the measure of short term volatility in the market and is as about as useful as gold in real terms. Look up VXX and see what I mean. The market is just a bunch of volatility and we can all invest in anything we want. Remember, if anyone ever complains about derivatives and options, just remind them we all started it (Farmers). LOL

To see how gold can fall, just look at the period from mid-August, 2011 through September (actually 10/3/2011 when the US market bottomed). During this period, the market fell, plus gold fell. This was when everyone expected a large European bank to fail (it almost did). Gold FELL when things were bleakest? European banks were selling to raise cash because the overnight lending had frozen again (a la Lehman 2008).

Gold just goes up and down. It may continue up as things improve because investors fear inflation, not catastrophe. When the SHTF, gold will fall, IMO, because there will be DEFLATION, not inflation.

Submitted by KansasFarmer (can't get my login changed).

wow...

people are shying away from "paper assets"

A lot of people here have a very Western view of the world. When gold dropped ~10% after running up 20% year after year, physical gold was snapped up by Central Banks and investors all over the world. You really need to understand the paper markets and the leverage they create. For every real ounce of gold there is, 100 paper ounces trade...Just keep that in mind when you talk about prices dropping and rising...it's all paper.

Also, when gold dropped recently, what role did the failure of MF Global play in that?

Edit: Why was gold called for use as collateral and Germany said "nein?"
euobserver.com/19/114181
 
   / Banks no longer posting deposit rates? #78  
Wow, Gold, looks like you either love or hate it :eek:

I've got a few measly ounces I bought for $350 OZ, wish I leveraged everything I could of and got more.

Interesting takes on both sides though.

JB
 
   / Banks no longer posting deposit rates? #79  
Wow, Gold, looks like you either love or hate it :eek:

I've got a few measly ounces I bought for $350 OZ, wish I leveraged everything I could of and got more.

Interesting takes on both sides though.

JB

Just look around you and see what is going on. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what is being done with the US Dollar and other currencies around the world. Things have been promised that can not be kept, unless the currency is debased.

I would love for people to actually have a real conversation about the role of gold, but clowns like GRS come in and spout off opinion with nothing to back it. I back up what I say and if you don't agree with it, post some facts as to why you don't. It isn't hard. I'm tired of the crybaby mentality of people like GRS...when he gets called out, he puts me on ignore because he simply can't handle it.

He posted on another thread I started and ran his mouth about real-estate and the stock market and how he retired at 50 because of the stock market. It is obvious to me that he simply can not comprehend that chart I posted about the debt-to-GDP I posted and how that has skewed things.

It's up to you to do what you want. I'm not here to tell you what to do or what not to do. I am here to hopefully help some people learn what has happened and what is going on. The gov't isn't going to tell you and sure as ****, a banker/financial broker isn't going to tell you.

And buying something like gold or stocks on leverage is not a very wise move (I know you probably said that in jest as we're seeing what has already occurred with 20/20 vision).

All I can say is what was unthinkable a few short years ago now seems to be occurring....i.e. MF Global, etc. Good luck.
 
   / Banks no longer posting deposit rates? #80  
JB4310, you seem like you enjoy learning....
I've posted this here before, but for you and others that may have missed it.

This is from Alan Greenspan back when he had a backbone and before he became a banker and created cheap money to fuel a housing boom for which we are suffering from the bust now.

Seriously, read this as you enjoy a favorite beverage of yours and contemplate what is said here and ask yourself why there is such a love/hate relationship with a shiny yellow metal that has had a role in monetary affairs all over the world for over 5,000 years.

Gold and Economic Freedom

by Alan Greenspan

Published in Ayn Rand's "Objectivist" newsletter in 1966, and reprinted in her book, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, in 1967.

An almost hysterical antagonism toward the gold standard is one issue which unites statists of all persuasions. They seem to sense — perhaps more clearly and subtly than many consistent defenders of laissez-faire — that gold and economic freedom are inseparable, that the gold standard is an instrument of laissez-faire and that each implies and requires the other.

In order to understand the source of their antagonism, it is necessary first to understand the specific role of gold in a free society.

Money is the common denominator of all economic transactions. It is that commodity which serves as a medium of exchange, is universally acceptable to all participants in an exchange economy as payment for their goods or services, and can, therefore, be used as a standard of market value and as a store of value, i.e., as a means of saving.

The existence of such a commodity is a precondition of a division of labor economy. If men did not have some commodity of objective value which was generally acceptable as money, they would have to resort to primitive barter or be forced to live on self-sufficient farms and forgo the inestimable advantages of specialization. If men had no means to store value, i.e., to save, neither long-range planning nor exchange would be possible.

What medium of exchange will be acceptable to all participants in an economy is not determined arbitrarily. First, the medium of exchange should be durable. In a primitive society of meager wealth, wheat might be sufficiently durable to serve as a medium, since all exchanges would occur only during and immediately after the harvest, leaving no value-surplus to store. But where store-of-value considerations are important, as they are in richer, more civilized societies, the medium of exchange must be a durable commodity, usually a metal. A metal is generally chosen because it is homogeneous and divisible: every unit is the same as every other and it can be blended or formed in any quantity. Precious jewels, for example, are neither homogeneous nor divisible. More important, the commodity chosen as a medium must be a luxury. Human desires for luxuries are unlimited and, therefore, luxury goods are always in demand and will always be acceptable. Wheat is a luxury in underfed civilizations, but not in a prosperous society. Cigarettes ordinarily would not serve as money, but they did in post-World War II Europe where they were considered a luxury. The term "luxury good" implies scarcity and high unit value. Having a high unit value, such a good is easily portable; for instance, an ounce of gold is worth a half-ton of pig iron.

In the early stages of a developing money economy, several media of exchange might be used, since a wide variety of commodities would fulfill the foregoing conditions. However, one of the commodities will gradually displace all others, by being more widely acceptable. Preferences on what to hold as a store of value will shift to the most widely acceptable commodity, which, in turn, will make it still more acceptable. The shift is progressive until that commodity becomes the sole medium of exchange. The use of a single medium is highly advantageous for the same reasons that a money economy is superior to a barter economy: it makes exchanges possible on an incalculably wider scale.

Whether the single medium is gold, silver, seashells, cattle, or tobacco is optional, depending on the context and development of a given economy. In fact, all have been employed, at various times, as media of exchange. Even in the present century, two major commodities, gold and silver, have been used as international media of exchange, with gold becoming the predominant one. Gold, having both artistic and functional uses and being relatively scarce, has significant advantages over all other media of exchange. Since the beginning of World War I, it has been virtually the sole international standard of exchange. If all goods and services were to be paid for in gold, large payments would be difficult to execute and this would tend to limit the extent of a society's divisions of labor and specialization. Thus a logical extension of the creation of a medium of exchange is the development of a banking system and credit instruments (bank notes and deposits) which act as a substitute for, but are convertible into, gold.

A free banking system based on gold is able to extend credit and thus to create bank notes (currency) and deposits, according to the production requirements of the economy. Individual owners of gold are induced, by payments of interest, to deposit their gold in a bank (against which they can draw checks). But since it is rarely the case that all depositors want to withdraw all their gold at the same time, the banker need keep only a fraction of his total deposits in gold as reserves. This enables the banker to loan out more than the amount of his gold deposits (which means that he holds claims to gold rather than gold as security of his deposits). But the amount of loans which he can afford to make is not arbitrary: he has to gauge it in relation to his reserves and to the status of his investments.

When banks loan money to finance productive and profitable endeavors, the loans are paid off rapidly and bank credit continues to be generally available. But when the business ventures financed by bank credit are less profitable and slow to pay off, bankers soon find that their loans outstanding are excessive relative to their gold reserves, and they begin to curtail new lending, usually by charging higher interest rates. This tends to restrict the financing of new ventures and requires the existing borrowers to improve their profitability before they can obtain credit for further expansion. Thus, under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy's stability and balanced growth. When gold is accepted as the medium of exchange by most or all nations, an unhampered free international gold standard serves to foster a world-wide division of labor and the broadest international trade. Even though the units of exchange (the dollar, the pound, the franc, etc.) differ from country to country, when all are defined in terms of gold the economies of the different countries act as one — so long as there are no restraints on trade or on the movement of capital. Credit, interest rates, and prices tend to follow similar patterns in all countries. For example, if banks in one country extend credit too liberally, interest rates in that country will tend to fall, inducing depositors to shift their gold to higher-interest paying banks in other countries. This will immediately cause a shortage of bank reserves in the "easy money" country, inducing tighter credit standards and a return to competitively higher interest rates again.

A fully free banking system and fully consistent gold standard have not as yet been achieved. But prior to World War I, the banking system in the United States (and in most of the world) was based on gold and even though governments intervened occasionally, banking was more free than controlled. Periodically, as a result of overly rapid credit expansion, banks became loaned up to the limit of their gold reserves, interest rates rose sharply, new credit was cut off, and the economy went into a sharp, but short-lived recession. (Compared with the depressions of 1920 and 1932, the pre-World War I business declines were mild indeed.) It was limited gold reserves that stopped the unbalanced expansions of business activity, before they could develop into the post-World War I type of disaster. The readjustment periods were short and the economies quickly reestablished a sound basis to resume expansion.

But the process of cure was misdiagnosed as the disease: if shortage of bank reserves was causing a business decline — argued economic interventionists — why not find a way of supplying increased reserves to the banks so they never need be short! If banks can continue to loan money indefinitely — it was claimed — there need never be any slumps in business. And so the Federal Reserve System was organized in 1913. It consisted of twelve regional Federal Reserve banks nominally owned by private bankers, but in fact government sponsored, controlled, and supported. Credit extended by these banks is in practice (though not legally) backed by the taxing power of the federal government. Technically, we remained on the gold standard; individuals were still free to own gold, and gold continued to be used as bank reserves. But now, in addition to gold, credit extended by the Federal Reserve banks ("paper reserves") could serve as legal tender to pay depositors.

When business in the United States underwent a mild contraction in 1927, the Federal Reserve created more paper reserves in the hope of forestalling any possible bank reserve shortage. More disastrous, however, was the Federal Reserve's attempt to assist Great Britain who had been losing gold to us because the Bank of England refused to allow interest rates to rise when market forces dictated (it was politically unpalatable). The reasoning of the authorities involved was as follows: if the Federal Reserve pumped excessive paper reserves into American banks, interest rates in the United States would fall to a level comparable with those in Great Britain; this would act to stop Britain's gold loss and avoid the political embarrassment of having to raise interest rates. The "Fed" succeeded; it stopped the gold loss, but it nearly destroyed the economies of the world, in the process. The excess credit which the Fed pumped into the economy spilled over into the stock market, triggering a fantastic speculative boom. Belatedly, Federal Reserve officials attempted to sop up the excess reserves and finally succeeded in braking the boom. But it was too late: by 1929 the speculative imbalances had become so overwhelming that the attempt precipitated a sharp retrenching and a consequent demoralizing of business confidence. As a result, the American economy collapsed. Great Britain fared even worse, and rather than absorb the full consequences of her previous folly, she abandoned the gold standard completely in 1931, tearing asunder what remained of the fabric of confidence and inducing a world-wide series of bank failures. The world economies plunged into the Great Depression of the 1930's.

With a logic reminiscent of a generation earlier, statists argued that the gold standard was largely to blame for the credit debacle which led to the Great Depression. If the gold standard had not existed, they argued, Britain's abandonment of gold payments in 1931 would not have caused the failure of banks all over the world. (The irony was that since 1913, we had been, not on a gold standard, but on what may be termed "a mixed gold standard"; yet it is gold that took the blame.) But the opposition to the gold standard in any form — from a growing number of welfare-state advocates — was prompted by a much subtler insight: the realization that the gold standard is incompatible with chronic deficit spending (the hallmark of the welfare state). Stripped of its academic jargon, the welfare state is nothing more than a mechanism by which governments confiscate the wealth of the productive members of a society to support a wide variety of welfare schemes. A substantial part of the confiscation is effected by taxation. But the welfare statists were quick to recognize that if they wished to retain political power, the amount of taxation had to be limited and they had to resort to programs of massive deficit spending, i.e., they had to borrow money, by issuing government bonds, to finance welfare expenditures on a large scale.

Under a gold standard, the amount of credit that an economy can support is determined by the economy's tangible assets, since every credit instrument is ultimately a claim on some tangible asset. But government bonds are not backed by tangible wealth, only by the government's promise to pay out of future tax revenues, and cannot easily be absorbed by the financial markets. A large volume of new government bonds can be sold to the public only at progressively higher interest rates. Thus, government deficit spending under a gold standard is severely limited. The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit. They have created paper reserves in the form of government bonds which — through a complex series of steps — the banks accept in place of tangible assets and treat as if they were an actual deposit, i.e., as the equivalent of what was formerly a deposit of gold. The holder of a government bond or of a bank deposit created by paper reserves believes that he has a valid claim on a real asset. But the fact is that there are now more claims outstanding than real assets. The law of supply and demand is not to be conned. As the supply of money (of claims) increases relative to the supply of tangible assets in the economy, prices must eventually rise. Thus the earnings saved by the productive members of the society lose value in terms of goods. When the economy's books are finally balanced, one finds that this loss in value represents the goods purchased by the government for welfare or other purposes with the money proceeds of the government bonds financed by bank credit expansion.

In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holding illegal, as was done in the case of gold. If everyone decided, for example, to convert all his bank deposits to silver or copper or any other good, and thereafter declined to accept checks as payment for goods, bank deposits would lose their purchasing power and government-created bank credit would be worthless as a claim on goods. The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.

This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights. If one grasps this, one has no difficulty in understanding the statists' antagonism toward the gold standard.
 

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