"Helmet? I don't need no steenking helmet!"

   / "Helmet? I don't need no steenking helmet!" #171  
While wearing a helmet may always sound like you will walk away scott free, there is and has been a valid cause for the argument of not wearing one. There are many a case file of severe and permanent neck injury. This results from the weight of the helmet hyperextending the spinal cord during the crash.

Bravo Sierra! I've been riding for over 40 years and raced motocross competitively for 4 years. If what you said was even remotely true, helmets would be forbidden in speed contests. The exact opposite is true in EVERY SINGLE CASE. I suppose you agree with people who say "I never wear a seat belt because I want to be throwed from the car and not get hurt inside it". :laughing:
 
   / "Helmet? I don't need no steenking helmet!" #173  
i think it's hard to dispute that overall the chance of living through a motorcycle accident is higher if you are wearing a helmet. that said, there are generally two distinct opinions in this thread as to why people are on one side or the other of this issue:

myself, and many on here wish the freedom to choose - not just for wearing helmets, but for many laws in general. i personally believe we already have too much legislation to protect ourselves from ourselves. with this and every other issue in the world today we have groups on both sides of the issue and neither will give an inch. it could be same sex marriage, gun control, helmet laws, seat belt laws, etc. these issues are so polarized, and neither side is willing to compromise, believing that once the other side gets its foot in the door it is the first step in a larger agenda. maybe if common sense broke out in the world we could see that there are shades of gray along with black and white. heck, i'm such a pessimist that i figure if i were to join the nra i'd also have to join the sierra club just to feel better about myself afterward, and i certainly don't belong in there.

aside from being a good humanitarian and not wishing death or injury on anyone, many of the people here believe that helmet laws should be mandatory because they don't want to be left with the financial burden of paying for long term care when the injuries may have been prevented by a helmet. i, for one, don't like paying for anything that could have been avoided, but think how much you already are footing the bill for that could have been avoided. social security dollars for addicts, bailouts to pay bonuses to millionaires, aid to foreign countries, etc. maybe if medical costs and prescription drugs were more reasonable then it wouldn't be such a burden. then again, maybe if legal fees and insurance payouts were put in check then medical costs wouldn't be so bad.

maybe we should also increase insurance costs (or maybe deny insurance) for anyone who doesn't get enough exercise, or consumes too much bad food. maybe we should all have meters implanted on us to monitor our blood sugar and cholesterol, and once we go over the limit we should have our insurance and rights revoked. heck, one auto insurance company is also offering in-car cameras to "provide" discounts for good drivers. how long before they all require them, and are allowed to use them to penalize us for the minor infractions that we all make from time to time?
 
   / "Helmet? I don't need no steenking helmet!" #174  
There is no question that rules and regulations accumulate, the exceptions usually prove the rule, i.e. the 55mph speed limit, so rare to take them back.
However, many view this as progress. Do we really think it is better to go back to unsafe ways of the past? The problem is the rules are needed when there is wide consensus, e.g helmets are pretty clear. Other cases are not so, and in fact, rules can use a wide brush that is obviously poor in some cases, which is the kind of examples used to show absurb government intrusion, like 5 gallon toilets where they have more water than air, compared to LA, or now it is incandescent light bulbs, where in cold climates the heat from them isn't "energy waste".

I agree with your general point, that the media and special interests have created a very polarized world, where reasonable and compromise and respect has left the building, and now things are more extreme. It is hard to see how this trend reverses, maybe there will finally be a rise of the "middle" against the two sides.



i think it's hard to dispute that overall the chance of living through a motorcycle accident is higher if you are wearing a helmet. that said, there are generally two distinct opinions in this thread as to why people are on one side or the other of this issue:

myself, and many on here wish the freedom to choose - not just for wearing helmets, but for many laws in general. i personally believe we already have too much legislation to protect ourselves from ourselves. with this and every other issue in the world today we have groups on both sides of the issue and neither will give an inch. it could be same sex marriage, gun control, helmet laws, seat belt laws, etc. these issues are so polarized, and neither side is willing to compromise, believing that once the other side gets its foot in the door it is the first step in a larger agenda. maybe if common sense broke out in the world we could see that there are shades of gray along with black and white. heck, i'm such a pessimist that i figure if i were to join the nra i'd also have to join the sierra club just to feel better about myself afterward, and i certainly don't belong in there.

aside from being a good humanitarian and not wishing death or injury on anyone, many of the people here believe that helmet laws should be mandatory because they don't want to be left with the financial burden of paying for long term care when the injuries may have been prevented by a helmet. i, for one, don't like paying for anything that could have been avoided, but think how much you already are footing the bill for that could have been avoided. social security dollars for addicts, bailouts to pay bonuses to millionaires, aid to foreign countries, etc. maybe if medical costs and prescription drugs were more reasonable then it wouldn't be such a burden. then again, maybe if legal fees and insurance payouts were put in check then medical costs wouldn't be so bad.

maybe we should also increase insurance costs (or maybe deny insurance) for anyone who doesn't get enough exercise, or consumes too much bad food. maybe we should all have meters implanted on us to monitor our blood sugar and cholesterol, and once we go over the limit we should have our insurance and rights revoked. heck, one auto insurance company is also offering in-car cameras to "provide" discounts for good drivers. how long before they all require them, and are allowed to use them to penalize us for the minor infractions that we all make from time to time?
 
   / "Helmet? I don't need no steenking helmet!" #175  
Lostcause, I probably tend to agree with you more than you might think. I'm not at all a safety ****. I just try to dwell on facts and truth when discussing these types of things. Wearing a motorcycle helmet does NOT make a neck injury more likely when you're riding a motorcycle. Might a neck injury kill you? Yes, of course.


I've ridden tens of thousands of miles, on and off road, and still say I am a beginning motorcyclist. If I didn't wear a helmet, the same would be true, and I wouldn't be any better off. Risky behavior can, and will, get people killed, irrespective of protective equipment. This is true whether we're talking about tractors, motorcycles, aircraft, firearms, or whatever other item one chooses. The guy acting stupid is usually the one involved in someone getting hurt; if he hurts himself, he paid the price for his actions. But hurting other people is beyond his purview. I NEVER want someone else to have the right to hurt me because their actions put me at risk.


With motorcycle helmets specifically, it's hard to imagine how not wearing a helmet could put others in danger. I think that the position something along the lines of "Helmet laws should be repealed because adults should have the freedom to choose for themselves the risks they take for themselves" is very defensible on its own, and should be used as the baseline to rationally and honestly carry on this debate.


Saying things like "If you wear a helmet, you're likely to get a broken neck" is both false and misleading according to all of my investigation. In fact, it makes the no-helmet position less defensible, because if these machines are so dangerous even helmets can't help, maybe the government will try to ban ALL of them.


Conversely, it's also misleading to say that "xxxx organization requires such and such a helmet/equipment, so it must be the best and right way to do things." What works for F1 drivers or professional motorcycle racers does not necessarily correlate to me driving on the street, or riding recreationally. That doesn't mean there is no value to their equipment list or specifications, simply that the conditions are different. The last death in Formula 1, Ayrton Senna, was killed when


"...the right front wheel had shot up upon impact and entered the cockpit area where Senna was sitting. It struck the right frontal area of his helmet, and the violence of the wheel痴 impact pushed his head back against the headrest, causing fatal skull fractures. A piece of upright attached to the wheel had partially penetrated his Bell M3 helmet and caused a trauma to his head. In addition, it appeared that a jagged piece of the upright assembly had penetrated the helmet visor just above his right eye." Wikipedia


I'm not worried about penetrating trauma to my head or my car wheel entering the cockpit and killing me in a crash. On the road to work, what is a potentially lethal threat to me is a 30 mph T-bone crash where someone runs a stoplight or stopsign or another driver swerving to avoid a dog or child and hitting me head-on. The system of injury is different because of conditions.


As you said, on the street wearing a helmet only makes you safer. We aren't racing, or planning to crash. The mindset of a person who decides to ride a motorcycle and gears up first, carefully inspects their machine before, during, and after each ride, has researched their route and road conditions beforehand, takes safety and skills courses and otherwise does everything right is what will keep them safer, vastly more than the equipment itself. Put a helmet on a drunk knucklehead and the best helmet cannot help.


The helmet can help with the sliding and head bonking type injuries that would otherwise be more serious. It's not a panacea for all people in all conditions. We can, though, and should, be as objective as we can, and honestly attempt to assess the risks in everything we do, whether it's picking our diet, exercise habits, companions, behavior, and all other things. This is a good discussion topic, thanks.
 
   / "Helmet? I don't need no steenking helmet!" #176  
I haven't kept up on all the studies, but remember reading "The Hurt Report" years ago; interesting reading.
 
   / "Helmet? I don't need no steenking helmet!" #177  
I haven't kept up on all the studies, but remember reading "The Hurt Report" years ago; interesting reading.

Yeah, I enjoy bringing up the Hurt Report for the "Loud Pipes Save Lives" crew. Oh hey, that car is making a left in front of me, I better gas it and make noise!
 
   / "Helmet? I don't need no steenking helmet!" #179  
Obviously a dead link, but today was a bad day on Maine's roads: 6 dead so far and we still have 3 hours to go to midnight.

No seatbelts, ejected: UPDATE: Police ID Gardiner crash victims | The Morning Sentinel, Waterville, ME

No seatbelt, ejected: Man killed in Cornville accident | The Morning Sentinel, Waterville, ME (Close to home, friends of my niece and nephew.)

No details on the other 3. January, 28-32f and raining. What? we should be careful? (seatbelts would help too, but I guess they sure told THE MAN.)
 
   / "Helmet? I don't need no steenking helmet!" #180  
Cherryfield woman seriously injured in ATV crash Maine News Bangor Daily News

Read the last comment (yeah, I know, an opinion) by the warden. Go figure.

Hello, I am the cherryfield woman, Marion Wright, I was not wearing a helmet but all my injuries were from the neck down. I was not speeding as the warden also said, I was going thru a washout with my feet in the air, I hit a rock, when bringing my feet down to the pegs (cause I had no running boards) my left foot slipped off the peg hit the ground and my back tire (paddle tires for mud not speed) started running me over and pulling me off the bike. It tore/ripped my workboot off my foot, wrapped my knee around the foot peg (making my knee 10 times bigger from swelling) pitched my body into the ground shoulder first , then left hip, and then pitched me about 30 feet from the area flipping over and over (serious blunt force trauma to my torso, especially the upper back area) broke 5 ribs and one place in my left hand. all bones are healed, now still waiting 3 1/2 months later for numbness and nerve pain to go away. Was out of work for 2 months and had my own health insurance to pay for stuff ( not state funded like some have commented.) this was truly an accident that could of happened to any of the 10 people in my group. Now my husband insists on getting a side by side because his wife got knocked the f*** out and he wants to keep an eye on me from now on !!
 
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