HST Power Consumption

   / HST Power Consumption #31  
I am new to the forum, but find the reading very interesting. Back in January I purchased a JD 955 with 963 hrs on it. Nice straight tractor, not beat up. I have put about 10 hrs on it mowing leveling gravel etc. and I am concerned about the engine oil consumption. I changed the engine oil when purchased 10 hours ago and the oil level went from the full mark to the add mark in 10 hours. The engine exhaust is light bluish when first start up but when it warms up most of that goes away. Then after it is warmed up if I let it idle for couple minutes and then rev it up it blows a cloud of bluish/white smoke for a few seconds the clears up to just a tint of bluish. When I mow and hit a spot where it works the motor a bit the bluish tint turns blackish tint. So having said all that is the yanmar due for an overhaul? or do I have an injector problem? or is the oil consumption normal?
 
   / HST Power Consumption #32  
Gears have also losses increasing about linearly with load. Each gear stage can loose 1.5-2% at full load. So if you have multistage gear box (that are the rule in tractors) the loses don't add but multiply each other and the total loss might be in range of several percent. All things considered the difference between HST and gear is less than the efficiency of the HST would suggest.
 
   / HST Power Consumption #33  
I am new to the forum, but find the reading very interesting. Back in January I purchased a JD 955 with 963 hrs on it. Nice straight tractor, not beat up. I have put about 10 hrs on it mowing leveling gravel etc. and I am concerned about the engine oil consumption. I changed the engine oil when purchased 10 hours ago and the oil level went from the full mark to the add mark in 10 hours. The engine exhaust is light bluish when first start up but when it warms up most of that goes away. Then after it is warmed up if I let it idle for couple minutes and then rev it up it blows a cloud of bluish/white smoke for a few seconds the clears up to just a tint of bluish. When I mow and hit a spot where it works the motor a bit the bluish tint turns blackish tint. So having said all that is the yanmar due for an overhaul? or do I have an injector problem? or is the oil consumption normal?


Welcome to the forum tag:)

I suggest you start a new thread in the John Deere Owning and Operating section. Lots of people there that can help you.
 
   / HST Power Consumption #34  
I am new to the forum, but find the reading very interesting. Back in January I purchased a JD 955 with 963 hrs on it. Nice straight tractor, not beat up. I have put about 10 hrs on it mowing leveling gravel etc. and I am concerned about the engine oil consumption. I changed the engine oil when purchased 10 hours ago and the oil level went from the full mark to the add mark in 10 hours. The engine exhaust is light bluish when first start up but when it warms up most of that goes away. Then after it is warmed up if I let it idle for couple minutes and then rev it up it blows a cloud of bluish/white smoke for a few seconds the clears up to just a tint of bluish. When I mow and hit a spot where it works the motor a bit the bluish tint turns blackish tint. So having said all that is the yanmar due for an overhaul? or do I have an injector problem? or is the oil consumption normal?

You should go to JD and/or Yanmar forum and start your own thread. You will have more hits from people that might have the answers. Go to the forum then click New Thread button, enter the title describing briefly the issue etc.
 
   / HST Power Consumption #35  
I don't know about percentage loss, size of orifaces for the oil, or how much heat it takes to cook your goose, but I do know that my toe on the "go pedal" of the HST is a LOT more efficient than my foot trying to slip the clutch on a gearbox....
 
   / HST Power Consumption #36  
pat32rf said:
I don't know about percentage loss, size of orifaces for the oil, or how much heat it takes to cook your goose, but I do know that my toe on the "go pedal" of the HST is a LOT more efficient than my foot trying to slip the clutch on a gearbox....

Amen!
 
   / HST Power Consumption #37  
Well designed HST system has small "throttling" losses causing heat generation. Most heat is generated by leakage in the pump and the motor. There is not a control element such as a control valve between the pump and the motor. The pump is variable delivery.
 
   / HST Power Consumption #38  
Because they were heavy is exactly why they could do so much. Refer to my Ford 120 example. That thing weighs about 4x what a new 12 hp weighs, its hst but plows fine. Do you understand the concept of drawbar hp and that it is limited by the weight of the tractor?

An hst powered wheels would work exactly like a gear unit only with more speeds. The loses in a small lightly loaded mechanical controlled swash plate hst are small, maybe 5%. Given the units have way more power than they can apply to the ground, the tiny bit of power loss in the hst is not going to make any difference in the performance. You don't need to rev it up if you have a 10 hp motor, it will happily chug at low rpm if the hst and aux gear box are sized right.

that the older garden tractors were capable of doing what they do because they're "heavy". Weight isn't the only issue. It's also how efficiently the engine's power is put to the ground.



Which is what I'm saying. Would, (or could), a 2 hp engine powered HST tractor be practical? The 2 hp non-HST example you gave that would spin its wheels under load illustrates what I mean. Put that same 2 hp engine on a machine and couple it to a hydrostat and see if the results are even remotely similar. They won't be. You'll have to have the engine revved up higher to efficiently drive the pump. Then once you add up the associated losses along the way, you'll end up with a lot less power being transmitted to the wheels.

The larger the equipment is, the less it all matters. If you're designing a machine to do a job, and that job is going to require 50 hp, then upsizing a powerplant to 55-60 hp to compensate for losses in a hydrostatic system is no big deal.

The smaller something is, the more it matters. Consider a smaller and simpler "machine" designed to transport you from point A to point B using the power you can provide manually. You can hop on a normal bicycle and do the job easily. Now imagine someone designed a bicycle that you propelled by pedaling a pump, that in turn sent power to the wheel via a hydraulic motor. In that situation, the losses and inefficiencies would be greatly magnified. You would expend a LOT more energy to travel the same speed or distance.

Machines that are gear-driven, (or chain-driven, or belt-driven), are not only built that way because it would be costly to re-tool to a different type of power-transmission. It's simply that what the machines could be re-tooled to use instead of the gears, chains, or belts costs more than just the $$ spent for the bits and pieces. Efficiency falls off as well.
 
   / HST Power Consumption #39  
I agree, a single stage roller chain drive at low speeds, is extremely efficient, one of the most efficient actually. Doesn't really have a place in the conversation about tractors.

I didn't follow the last sentence but hst is simply more expensive. To get the same range of speeds, you need to have an aux gearbox, with 2 or 3 or more speeds. This means you don't save the cost of a gearbox and you add the cost of the hst unit.

My last point is if the hst doesn't do anything better, why have it? Infinitely variable speeds are great, but not all tasks are improved. If I have to reach down and stop manhandling my 2 wheeled tractor to shift the hst lever, I'm not really gaining anything. If I'm pulling a plow, and the soil in a reasonable distance is the same, I'll need the same speed over and over, why would I want to frig around with a variable lever when I need the same speed again at the end of a headland.

You can hop on a normal bicycle and do the job easily. Now imagine someone designed a bicycle that you propelled by pedaling a pump,

Machines that are gear-driven, (or chain-driven, or belt-driven), are not only built that way because it would be costly to re-tool to a different type of power-transmission. It's simply that what the machines could be re-tooled to use instead of the gears, chains, or belts costs more than just the $$ spent for the bits and pieces. Efficiency falls off as well.
 
   / HST Power Consumption #40  
This discussion has turned "religious", and has strayed far from the OP's question, which had to do with why HST used more power.

As for the best choice in a piece of equipment, that depends on what you're doing. If you're going to run a tractor for long periods of time at constant speed then geared makes sense as even a gain of a couple percent in efficiency is worth while. If you're going to do shuttle type operations then Fwd/Rev using a single pedal makes sense. The tractors I use for haying are geared, never felt the need for anything else. The bobcat has HST w/ fwd/rev on a joystick, perfect for keeping the auger aligned when I've digging post holes. What it comes down to is the right tool for the job is the most efficient from a productivity point of view....
 

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