Could a Aussie tell us how your Government confiscated your guns?

[daugen]

and one more CNN article:
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

some thoughts:

65% of Republicans have guns in their home, 25% Democrat. Fascinating. And there is no consensus whatsoever, the
whole argument is hovering around 50/50 so we are about equal in our differing opinions. This issue is not going to go away anytime soon,
and with the short term memory of slaughtered children lying in pools of blood, I bet we will see all kinds of bills introduced.

Not a safe world for children anymore. All around the world the softest of targets are being hurt.
When Syria bombs one of their own schools, and gets away with it, I can understand why many would want a gun in their home to
in some way defend against this. Governments go bad. So far ours hasn't, and our system has worked, despite the huge power of military and industrial
interests. And the NRA. And the ACLU. Lots of people and organizations out there trying to protect basic human rights. And so far
being reasonably successful, and hopefully we will all continue to make incremental improvements in our ability to live peacefully together.

While I am a lifelong pacifist, I believe equally strongly that the strong must protect the weak.
Personally I'd like to require some form of non lethal response everywhere possible. Everywhere. Unrealistic though, life doesn't work that way.
Rabid raccoons will bite you quickly. You can't take the time to chat with them. But maybe we could try trapping them first. (like in front of a school...)
But even that doesn't always work. Home invaders may shoot first and ask questions later. Sometimes all you can do is meet force with force, or
whoever or whatever one is dealing with will hurt or kill us. Everyone has the right to defend themselves. And hopefully we can figure out how to live in a world
safe enough so that everyone doesn't need a carry permit to feel safe. And our kids don't have to wear bullet resistant backpacks.

More guns is not the answer, I think I heard a figure of 450 million guns in the US. With that many guns, we still aren't safe...
We need better non lethal alternatives for civilian protection.

And in my favorite scenario, the entire world trades all military weapons in for paintball guns.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

One more reason to move to as rural a place as possible . More gun laws are not going to stop a mass murderer from commiting his crime he will just choose another method to reach his goal , The government wants to disarm the population this is the beginning we may not see it done in our (the +50 year old) lifetime but the younger generations will accept these ideals because they believe all food comes from a store and have no hunter gatherer skills and see no reason for a hunting rifle ! The all inclusive ,woosy ,soft cubicle workers of today will accept these changes ! They will be force fed the agenda thru the media and the ideals we hold dear will not mean squat to them .The government has grown so large and there are so many regulatory agencies they have no way to enforce all the laws we already have let alone the constant stream of new ones ! so what happens then ? an armed "cop/soldier" on every corner ? sounds like a lot of you would entertain this notion !

 

[Loren49]

Here is why we must fight for 2nd admendment; (this was forwarded to me)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
After every mass shooting, we hear the unenlightened politicians and knee-jerk liberals wailing, "If we can save just ONE life by getting guns off the street, then it is worth passing stricter gun control..."
Well, the next time you hear that from anybody, I want you to respond with: "Over 170 million people would disagree with you... if they could. You can't talk with them, because they are dead! They were killed by their own governments after strict gun control disarmed them."
Then I want you to hand them a copy of Innocents Betrayed, an award-winning documentary DVD that I co-produced with Aaron Zelman and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO).
You have probably seen the e-mails that float around the Internet that look like this:
WORLDWIDE HISTORY OF GUN CONFISCATION
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated...
------------------------
In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------
Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------
China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------
Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------
Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
------------------------
Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
Well, I co-produced Innocents Betrayed because it dramatically and irrefutably documents the direct connections between government gun control schemes and the subsequent genocides that have taken the lives of over 170 million people!
This is a must-see DVD because it contains documented, proven facts of history that even the most ardent gun control advocate cannot deny.
Watch a short trailer of this riveting and educational film. Then order your own copies to share with your family, friends and co-workers. All proceeds go directly to JPFO and assist in their efforts to educate Americans and expose the fallacy of gun control.
Innocents Betrayed - YouTube

Limits already exist as to what 2nd means. It seems that confiscating all guns from the population is clearly UnConstitutional and there is no evidence it is on the agenda of a significant number of people. The thought that all gun sales of certain types should require a background check as a way to lessen the probability of powerful weapons being possessed by mentally unstable people has nothing to do with disarming all. Most agree 4 yr olds shouldn't possess fully automatic weapons. A limit exists and should be adjusted to balance all of our Constitutional rights. There are already limits on what the 2nd allows so the right has been infringed and most agree that it is justified.

Loren

 

[niemeyjt]

I know this is an Aussie thread, but similar happened in UK.

In the 80s there was a massacre at Hungerford by a guy with an assault rifle - that was the excuse to ban them and semi-automatic rifles.

In the 90s there was another at a school in Dunblane (Scotland) with hand guns - that was the excuse to ban them.

I think it was just a case of surrender - no compensation. I gave up a semi-automatic .22 that was great for rabbits. As even then all guns needed a shotgun / fuirearms certificate, it was a matter of honesty and Police follow-up checks. The firearms dealer who I spoke to at the time said that I could have just said "I have cut it up" and not been required to provide evidence.

Now fewer people have guns, except shot guns, although manual rifles are allowed / mandated for game shooting on approved land - apart from the criminals who seem to have a collection at their disposal. Also, powerful air rifles are classed as firearms.

As for death rates - I am not sure they are quite as low as Piers would have you believe - 51 was figure I saw for 2011 vs 68 in 2010 and 132 in 2009. However, it just needs one incident like 2010 Cumbria incident to make a big impact on figures.

Julian

 

[3930dave]

It would see that at least the posters on here from Australia and Canada all assume that the vast majority of US citizens have loaded weapons with them at all times, with loaded weapons in every room, just in case. Yes, there are a lot of weapons in the US, but then again, our population is much larger than those two countries. Figures lie and liars figure, you can skew numbers based on this and that, but figure the numbers per 1000 people, not just what pops up on the news. Yes, we've had some horrific shootings, but in this day and age with instant worldwide coverage, it appears that we're still in the wild wild west, but, if anyone would take the time to think about it, they don't occur that often. One is too many, I agree, but the whole thing is overblown. As so having an armed person inside a school, even if it was another idiot with a machete hacking up kids, I wouldn't mind having someone with a firearm stopping them. I seriously doubt that anyone here has ever had to go up against someone swinging a machete, I have and there is no doubt in my mind that if I didn't have my service pistol, I wouldn't be alive to be posting this now.
RE the supposed and waited upon gun controls, what do you think the members of our government think about the recent (unheard of) spikes in gun sales? Do they really think all these people are buying up all those firearms and ammo (after paying around twice the usual retail value) just so they can turn them in when asked to do so?
Right now, the LIBs are running on their emotions and that's the wrong frame of mind to be in when you're attempting to institute new laws. Every other part of the constitution has to be ratified before change, yet they just seem to think the 2nd amendment can be changed as easily as a city code.

I realize that this thread asked for information about their gun control and no disrespect to our northern friends or our island allies, but they ain't got no dogs in this fight. They wouldn't appreciate us chipping in on one of theirs.

I follow your logic Gunny, but will have to, respectfully, disagree with your last comment.

We Canadians are directly affected by USA firearm laws, given that most of us are connected by land to the USA. As one of the guys on here has posted, his buddies from Canada will often come down to visit, and buy handguns that they can't get in Canada.

Given the volume of heavy truck traffic, many of the illegal handguns in Canada arrive here in the back (or rather the front) of a heavy truck trailer. With the mountains of handguns in the USA, it just comes down to supply and demand - the bad guys here will always pay, and there are enough truck drivers willing to take their cash.

That is one reason that some Canadians will get vocal about USA gun laws, as the over-the-border leakage of illegal (as in illegal in Canada) handguns is a big problem here. Would we still have some illegal handguns in Canada, if we could magically totally seal off our southern border to this problem ? Yes. I'm not contending that 100% of our illegal handguns come from the USA, but certainly most do.

My father taught me gun safety, and how to shoot, on his father's farm. I value the heritage and tradition of that, and the utility of a gun on a farm as a tool. Here, that positions me as at least moderately pro-gun.

Please keep my background in mind, when I ask these questions of US gun owners:

Do you feel that there is adequate gun safety training available, in the area that you live ?

Do you feel that there is an adequate participation rate in gun training (vs. the # of gun owners) ?

Does the average gun owner where you reside understand current gun legislation, in all the areas that they travel with their weapons ?

I remember an article in 4 Wheeler years ago, detailing the gun law differences between various States. I got the impression that you'd need to have your attorney with you, if you were taking weapons across State lines.

In a past life, there was opportunity for me to transfer to branches of an American company that I worked for here in Canada. To make my view of guns hopefully totally clear - in many of the those cities, I would have wanted to carry concealed. Given the level of poverty, drugs, and easy access to handguns, I couldn't see making the move otherwise.

My biggest concern (and the main reason I didn't apply for the transfers) was my wife. My fear there, was that she wouldn't be able to pull a trigger, when she needed to defend herself.

Hence my questions today about training. Gun safety is one aspect of training, being mentally prepared to pull the trigger is another one. I honestly wonder how many USA handgun owners are adequately trained on both aspects.

In the time since I was young, I've seen a decline in mechanical knowledge in the general population, and definitely a decline in respectful driving behaviour here in Canada. For those reasons alone, I would not want to see a rise in handgun ownership here, as people create enough carnage with vehicles already.

Rgds, D.

 

[RadarTech]

I follow your logic Gunny, but will have to, respectfully, disagree with your last comment.

We Canadians are directly affected by USA firearm laws, given that most of us are connected by land to the USA. As one of the guys on here has posted, his buddies from Canada will often come down to visit, and buy handguns that they can't get in Canada.

Given the volume of heavy truck traffic, many of the illegal handguns in Canada arrive here in the back (or rather the front) of a heavy truck trailer. With the mountains of handguns in the USA, it just comes down to supply and demand - the bad guys here will always pay, and there are enough truck drivers willing to take their cash.

That is one reason that some Canadians will get vocal about USA gun laws, as the over-the-border leakage of illegal (as in illegal in Canada) handguns is a big problem here. Would we still have some illegal handguns in Canada, if we could magically totally seal off our southern border to this problem ? Yes. I'm not contending that 100% of our illegal handguns come from the USA, but certainly most do.

My father taught me gun safety, and how to shoot, on his father's farm. I value the heritage and tradition of that, and the utility of a gun on a farm as a tool. Here, that positions me as at least moderately pro-gun.

Please keep my background in mind, when I ask these questions of US gun owners:

Do you feel that there is adequate gun safety training available, in the area that you live ?

Do you feel that there is an adequate participation rate in gun training (vs. the # of gun owners) ?

Does the average gun owner where you reside understand current gun legislation, in all the areas that they travel with their weapons ?

I remember an article in 4 Wheeler years ago, detailing the gun law differences between various States. I got the impression that you'd need to have your attorney with you, if you were taking weapons across State lines.

In a past life, there was opportunity for me to transfer to branches of an American company that I worked for here in Canada. To make my view of guns hopefully totally clear - in many of the those cities, I would have wanted to carry concealed. Given the level of poverty, drugs, and easy access to handguns, I couldn't see making the move otherwise.

My biggest concern (and the main reason I didn't apply for the transfers) was my wife. My fear there, was that she wouldn't be able to pull a trigger, when she needed to defend herself.

Hence my questions today about training. Gun safety is one aspect of training, being mentally prepared to pull the trigger is another one. I honestly wonder how many USA handgun owners are adequately trained on both aspects.

In the time since I was young, I've seen a decline in mechanical knowledge in the general population, and definitely a decline in respectful driving behaviour here in Canada. For those reasons alone, I would not want to see a rise in handgun ownership here, as people create enough carnage with vehicles already.

Rgds, D.

Smuggling of anything to any other country is a problem if the country and international treaty...
Saying that another country should have a voice on the internal laws of it individual citizens is not right....
Yes every county follows the US in regards to human rights.... Ie Afghanistan and Iraq... But if you don't pay our taxes and don't elect our leaders. You really can't call them and say anything....
Your leaders can call.... And we can choose how we respond

 

[Gunny]

The best way to answer this one on my last comment: Handguns as such, aren't being considered much under any new proposed gun ban, mostly rifles. If they're legal here, but taken across the border to Canada, then they're only illegal under Canadian laws, but I thought the reason for asking the original question was because your and Australian laws were so much better than ours. A need, either legal or illegal, will always create a market, in anything, anywhere at anytime. Basic business concept, taught at college level.
There will always be a market for illegal weapons, and criminals will always find that market, whether US, Canadian, British or Australian. Any new ban will only affect law abiding citizens in the United States. Since anyone selling a firearm to a Canadian is breaking the law anyway, any new laws won't stop them if the previous laws didn't. Seems to me that the best (and easiest) way to shut down the flow of weapons into Canada would be to do a better job of inspecting vehicles coming into your country. Lots of luck with that, as it hasn't worked out much for us in stemming drugs coming from Mexico and drugs are illegal on both sides of those borders!

Do you feel that there is adequate gun safety training available, in the area that you live ?
Gun safety training is available almost everywhere, most through the NRA and most of the time, free to anyone wanting to attend. Sometimes there is a small charge for anything used or given during the course.

Do you feel that there is an adequate participation rate in gun training (vs. the # of gun owners) ?
I can't speak for all states, but Kentucky requires anyone born after January 1, 1975 must complete a hunters safety course (which includes gun safety) before they can legally hunt. As far as I know, every state that allows concealed carry (which is all except Illinois) requires you attend a state certified course before you're issued a certificate. Once you have the certificate, then you have a pretty extensive background check before you're given your concealed carry permit.
I will admit that the average Joe, just wanting to buy a weapon, of any kind, probably doesn't bother with any type of training or certification, unless they plan on hunting or getting a concealed carry permit.

Does the average gun owner where you reside understand current gun legislation, in all the areas that they travel with their weapons ?
No, but the average gun owner usually errs on the side of caution, in that they do not carry any weapon across state lines. Anyone with a concealed carry permit has it drilled into him through the course that if they intend to carry outside the state, they should check for reciprocity, which means that I can carry in about 38 of the continental United States legally. It is also drilled into you the possible ramifications of being caught carrying in a state that does not have reciprocity with Kentucky.

So your statement that Canadians are affected by US gun laws is in error. Canadians are affected by illegal transactions, on our side by the seller and on your side by the buyer, but then again, these laws have and will only affect law abiding citizens, who already had no effect on the number of guns going across the border into Canada. If a criminal doesn't respect laws currently in effect, does anyone in their right mind think they're going to respect any new laws?

Sorry I got so long winded, but I hope I got my point across

 

[3930dave]

Smuggling of anything to any other country is a problem if the country and international treaty...
Saying that another country should have a voice on the internal laws of it individual citizens is not right....
Yes every county follows the US in regards to human rights.... Ie Afghanistan and Iraq... But if you don't pay our taxes and don't elect our leaders. You really can't call them and say anything....
Your leaders can call.... And we can choose how we respond

I do know that there is ongoing dialog between Ottawa and Washington on this subject. It is a complicated issue to solve.

Years past, over beverages, I've had some interesting discussions on this topic with professional counterparts from the USA. I am aware that this topic is sensitive enough that I rarely bring it up, and only in select company.

I have no interest in telling Americans (or anybody else, for that matter) how they should be structuring their laws, that is up to a sovereign country to figure out. My point, (more in my next response) is that the gun climate in the USA has a huge effect in Canada.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

The best way to answer this one on my last comment: Handguns as such, aren't being considered much under any new proposed gun ban, mostly rifles. If they're legal here, but taken across the border to Canada, then they're only illegal under Canadian laws, but I thought the reason for asking the original question was because your and Australian laws were so much better than ours. A need, either legal or illegal, will always create a market, in anything, anywhere at anytime. Basic business concept, taught at college level.
There will always be a market for illegal weapons, and criminals will always find that market, whether US, Canadian, British or Australian. Any new ban will only affect law abiding citizens in the United States. Since anyone selling a firearm to a Canadian is breaking the law anyway, any new laws won't stop them if the previous laws didn't. Seems to me that the best (and easiest) way to shut down the flow of weapons into Canada would be to do a better job of inspecting vehicles coming into your country. Lots of luck with that, as it hasn't worked out much for us in stemming drugs coming from Mexico and drugs are illegal on both sides of those borders!

Do you feel that there is adequate gun safety training available, in the area that you live ?
Gun safety training is available almost everywhere, most through the NRA and most of the time, free to anyone wanting to attend. Sometimes there is a small charge for anything used or given during the course.

Do you feel that there is an adequate participation rate in gun training (vs. the # of gun owners) ?
I can't speak for all states, but Kentucky requires anyone born after January 1, 1975 must complete a hunters safety course (which includes gun safety) before they can legally hunt. As far as I know, every state that allows concealed carry (which is all except Illinois) requires you attend a state certified course before you're issued a certificate. Once you have the certificate, then you have a pretty extensive background check before you're given your concealed carry permit.
I will admit that the average Joe, just wanting to buy a weapon, of any kind, probably doesn't bother with any type of training or certification, unless they plan on hunting or getting a concealed carry permit.

Does the average gun owner where you reside understand current gun legislation, in all the areas that they travel with their weapons ?
No, but the average gun owner usually errs on the side of caution, in that they do not carry any weapon across state lines. Anyone with a concealed carry permit has it drilled into him through the course that if they intend to carry outside the state, they should check for reciprocity, which means that I can carry in about 38 of the continental United States legally. It is also drilled into you the possible ramifications of being caught carrying in a state that does not have reciprocity with Kentucky.

So your statement that Canadians are affected by US gun laws is in error. Canadians are affected by illegal transactions, on our side by the seller and on your side by the buyer, but then again, these laws have and will only affect law abiding citizens, who already had no effect on the number of guns going across the border into Canada. If a criminal doesn't respect laws currently in effect, does anyone in their right mind think they're going to respect any new laws?

Sorry I got so long winded, but I hope I got my point across

Thanks Gunny - your responses help shed some light on the current controls in place in the USA, something I don't know much about.

In the spirit of this thread, in a broad sense it is about comparing different environments and learning something.

Reading that 4 Wheeler magazine years ago, I remember thinking "Hmmm, there are some States that actually have stricter controls (long guns esp.) than Canada".

I might have it wrong, but AFAIK, it is not always illegal to sell a gun to a Canadian in the USA. In certain States (ex. FLA), Canadians may be able to legally purchase guns, including handguns. What happens after that purchase (shipment/border crossing) may be illegal, but the purchase is not always so.

Unless we shut down the border totally, we all understand the ease with which guns (long and short) can be smuggled into Canada. Canadian Border Services does confiscate plenty, but that is only the tip of the iceberg.

In the context of this thread, I was mainly trying to get across 2 points:

1) By virtue of proximity to the USA, Canada has a magnitude of a gun problem to deal with, that Australia does not. Yes, gangbangers in LA can always Fedex guns to gangbangers in Oz, but that is nowhere near the scope of the transborder truck options that criminals have between Can/USA.

2) Whether it is your house, or a country, your decisions,actions and the environment you create affect your neighbours.

If none of the millions of guns in the USA made it into Canada, few Canadians would have an opinion on US gun laws - or, to be more blunt, with the obsession for stockpiling weapons, often unsecured.

If the southern border was magically sealed to illegal gun traffic , then gun adverse Canadians (I'm not one of them) would have the choice to avoid a gun crowded culture by choosing to not travel to the USA.

A parallel example I can make is with marijuana laws. If Canada suddenly legalized marijuana, I would expect plenty of Americans would have strong opinions - especially parents of young kids/teens in border States. I cite this example, not because I'm pro MJ (I have no interest in it, and none of the people I associate with do), but because it is a good example of the effect of one country's environment/laws on a neighbouring country.

I'm not big on preaching, so it wouldn't have been me saying that our laws are "better". Perhaps, more appropriate for our environment, but not "better" in an absolute sense.

The USA environment is one of a monumental mass of stockpiled personal weapons, that despite all the conspiracy theories, won't be going away any time soon.

My first hope is that the large group of responsible gun owners in the USA continue to evolve, taking training where needed, and following the discipline of properly securing weapons. A tool isn't much good if you don't know how to use it properly and safely, or worse yet, have it turned on you.

My second hope is that Canadian borders become less porous, but that will take some doing.

Rgds, D.

 

[sweettractors]

Does Canada have a large enough Military, so as to be able to defend themselves from any foreign takeover attempt without the help of other countries? Ken Sweet