Got a wee bit of a property line issue

[riptides]

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Also remember MDBARBs long story on TBN.

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GOOD suggestion.

That should be a required read any time property "issues" is the topic. I suggest the OP go read it.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/14251-help-i-need-legal-advice.html

 

[whistlepig]

I've heard about that 7 year rule.
But, I've never heard of it applied.

Around here, whenever there is a property dispute, it generally goes back to the original survey.

What is the definition of "maintained"? Some people like "natural". Some people want it to look like Central Park NY.

I was the bad guy for doing this once. I fenced in a small corner of a property that belonged to someone else. Just to keep my fence lines straight. Less than 1/10 of an acre. This property belonged to a billboard company. The owner stopped by a couple of weeks later and said that he noticed that I had fenced off some ground that belonged to him. I admitted doing so. He was the one that told me about the seven year rule. He said that if I kept it fenced for seven years and took care of this land I could legally claim his land as my own. He was a true gentleman. He said that if I would sign a document stating that I had fenced in his land and was caring for it with no right's to ownership and this was filed with the county courthouse I could leave my fence where it was. We worked things out.

 

[phiferpharm]

Well, the bottom line for the moment is the surveyor will be here next week, so we can at least figure out what is legally correct. The fence was put in less than two years ago when I was still only up here once a month, but the wife had already moved in. She remembered one other tidbit - the neighbors wife told my wife they had just fenced in the easement since nobody was using it.. That is even crazier as my survey shows the easement is actually on the OTHER side of the old fence line according to my survey. Lets see what the surveyor has to say.

 

[whistlepig]

Well, the bottom line for the moment is the surveyor will be here next week, so we can at least figure out what is legally correct. The fence was put in less than two years ago when I was still only up here once a month, but the wife had already moved in. She remembered one other tidbit - the neighbors wife told my wife they had just fenced in the easement since nobody was using it.. That is even crazier as my survey shows the easement is actually on the OTHER side of the old fence line according to my survey. Lets see what the surveyor has to say.

Sounds like you are going the right direction. Although the hassle and cost seems to be on you and not the offender. I would be very interested on how this works out. I'm on your side.

 

[milkman636]

It is a shame that it is so common for people not to respect boundaries. My brother just found out over this winter that his "neighbors" had cleared about an extra 20 feet of trees off his back property line and erected temporary fencing. They argued with him when he went to discuss things and then proceeded to produce a survey that showed distance to the property line from the back of their house. They all measured together and found that my brother was correct about the boundary. They still wouldn't remove the fence and the township government/police won't intervene in civil matters. He will have to proceed to court to remedy the situation.

The moral of this story is just to say that they bought a very specifically bounded piece of property when they purchased their place. Whether they intentionally encroached on your property or not, a decent person would want to make things right with you rather than expect you to yield property to them. If they are not willing to take their fence down after they are made aware of the encroachment, than they are probably not worth having a good relationship with. You shouldn't have to buy good neighbors. I'd give them an opportunity to make it right, but that fence would be gone soon if it was on my property. It would be treated just like the other junk that was cleared out to improve the place.

 

[joshuabardwell]

They still wouldn't remove the fence and the township government/police won't intervene in civil matters. He will have to proceed to court to remedy the situation.

Really? They both agree that the fence is on his property. Seems like he would be well within his rights to simply disassemble it and, if he was feeling gracious, leave the posts/etc... on their side of the line.

 

[whistlepig]

It could be a simple oversight from the neighbor. Nothing malicious. Maybe. These things do happen time to time with folks with a little acreage. I plead guilty to this myself. phiferpharm is handling this like a good neighbor and with the knowledge on how best to handle this. Not an easy thing to do. World could use a few more folks like him. He could be my neighbor any day.

 

[dmccarty]

Seems like a heck of a gamble, unless you just like building fences and are dying for the chance to build it again.

It was not a gamble. The guy thought he knew the location of the lines which he did not.

I have all sorts of stories about that place but I keep those stories off of TBN.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

It is a shame that it is so common for people not to respect boundaries. My brother just found out over this winter that his "neighbors" had cleared about an extra 20 feet of trees off his back property line and erected temporary fencing. They argued with him when he went to discuss things and then proceeded to produce a survey that showed distance to the property line from the back of their house. They all measured together and found that my brother was correct about the boundary. They still wouldn't remove the fence and the township government/police won't intervene in civil matters. He will have to proceed to court to remedy the situation.
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Have your brother check his state laws about removing timber. In NC it is a criminal offense to remove ie steal, someone's trees.

Later,
Dan

 

[dave1949]

Have your brother check his state laws about removing timber. In NC it is a criminal offense to remove ie steal, someone's trees.

Later,
Dan

I think here you get triple the wood value for timber trespassing, plus the possibility of other fines.

 

[joshuabardwell]

It was not a gamble. The guy thought he knew the location of the lines which he did not.

IMO, unless his belief about the location of the property line was based on a survey, it was a gamble. If he had a survey done years ago and just misremembered, I'll agree that's not gambling, just human error. But a lot of people think they know where their property line is because the previous owner told them that was where it was, or obviously it must be the stream, or something like that, and that's just silly.

 

[Kyle_in_Tex]

Well, the bottom line for the moment is the surveyor will be here next week, so we can at least figure out what is legally correct. The fence was put in less than two years ago when I was still only up here once a month, but the wife had already moved in. She remembered one other tidbit - the neighbors wife told my wife they had just fenced in the easement since nobody was using it.. That is even crazier as my survey shows the easement is actually on the OTHER side of the old fence line according to my survey. Lets see what the surveyor has to say.

How wide is the easement?

 

[Ted Summey]

Have your brother check his state laws about removing timber. In NC it is a criminal offense to remove ie steal, someone's trees.

Later,
Dan

In NC the owner of the trees is entitled to 3x the value of the erroneously cut trees. My wife's uncle collected on a similar situation.

 

[milkman636]

Not to hijack this thread, my brother's neighbors own survey they showed him agreed. They still would not agree even though they measured with him working from their own survey. The wife grew up in the house and swears that she knows where the line is. He is working with a lawyer to pursue his options. He left the fence at the recommendation of the attorney. Still a PITA just to get an enforceable court order that will keep them off the land, and any judgement for damages will be partly offset by some attorney and surveyor costs. Part of his issue also involves who people are in relation to local politics. Sorry to the OP for interjecting here.

 

[dave1949]

Not to hijack this thread, my brother's neighbors own survey they showed him agreed. They still would not agree even though they measured with him working from their own survey. The wife grew up in the house and swears that she knows where the line is. He is working with a lawyer to pursue his options. He left the fence at the recommendation of the attorney. Still a PITA just to get an enforceable court order that will keep them off the land, and any judgement for damages will be partly offset by some attorney and surveyor costs. Part of his issue also involves who people are in relation to local politics. Sorry to the OP for interjecting here.

They measured together from the neighbor's survey and still won't agree? That's stupid. I am not sure how I would deal with that, probably not well. :laughing: Must have been an interesting conversation. "Yes, I see what the tape measure says, but I grew up here, and I know where the line is." WTH?

It would be an odd survey that measures from the back of the house to the line I think.

 

[riptides]

They measured together from the neighbor's survey and still won't agree? That's stupid. I am not sure how I would deal with that, probably not well. :laughing: Must have been an interesting conversation. "Yes, I see what the tape measure says, but I grew up here, and I know where the line is." WTH?

It would be an odd survey that measures from the back of the house to the line I think.

Maybe elevations come into play with the tape measure? Just kidding. Pretty odd situation.

 

[milkman636]

Yes it is a "pretty odd situation". Her survey dated from when her parents owned the place. My brother has since paid for a surveyor to come out and reestablish the boundary line and place new pins. The difficulties are proving what was there and who actually removed it, and having an legally enforceable way to prevent them from continuing to enjoy the extra 20' so it can revert back to nature. How many of us take pictures of the back of our woods?

 

[dave1949]

Yes it is a "pretty odd situation". Her survey dated from when her parents owned the place. My brother has since paid for a surveyor to come out and reestablish the boundary line and place new pins. The difficulties are proving what was there and who actually removed it, and having an legally enforceable way to prevent them from continuing to enjoy the extra 20' so it can revert back to nature. How many of us take pictures of the back of our woods?

Not me, good point. Fortunately I guess, a lot of the land boundaries in this area follow the old stone walls. That makes it hard for them to "move".

 

[ovrszd]

My neighbor to the East built 1/4 mile of new fence last Fall. It borders a public roadway that is on an easement of our land. He moved the new fence 8 feet our direction. That effectively moved the land boundary 8 feet. He hired the fence built and it was completed before I saw it. I went to him and said "Kevin, your fence is illegal and has to be moved and you know why". He didn't reply, just stared at the ground. I said it again. He didn't reply, just stared at the ground. I said "Kevin, the 15th of April your fence will be removed from our property, you can do it or I'll do it, it's your choice". He said Okay. The 14th of April the fence was still standing. I went to his house and said "Kevin, your fence will be removed tomorrow". He gave me several excuses for not having moved it yet. I said "Kevin, your fence is on our property and legally is mine. Tomorrow morning I will put my Grapple Bucket on the tractor, cut the wire every 100 feet or so, pull the steel posts with the Grapple and pile all the metal in the scrap pile. Then I'll pull the Hedge posts with the Grapple and block them up for firewood". All with a calm and mature voice. He said "I'd rather you didn't do that". I said "Then you need to remove your fence, it's your choice". The next morning at 8 a.m. he was removing fence and by that evening it was being built back on the property line where it belonged. I have no tolerance for neighbors/people who deliberately try to do something like this. I was patient but deliberate in my actions. There was no doubt in Kevin's mind that I would tear out his fence. I didn't need a surveyor or lawyer. If Kevin forced my hand then he would have been the one having to hire a surveyor or lawyer to prove he was right. He knew he was wrong so there was no argument. I say the OP's neighbor also knows he's wrong. If I were in the OP's shoes I would give his neighbor the same option I gave Kevin.

 

[milkman636]

I agree. My brother is overly cautious in his approach. My personal approach to both his and the OP's situations would be more similar to yours.

If I were the OP my first conversation with the neighbor about "my" fence would go something like this. Hey.... since I cleared this brush out on my property I really don't like seeing this fence here. It looks like it would fit nicely on your property. If you think you could use it I'll help you put it up along the property line. If you don't want it I'll probably just cut it up and use it for a bonfire. You should come over and have a beer while we burn it.....