500 Watt vs Amps?

   / 500 Watt vs Amps? #11  
I had a gfi in my garage. I wanted to be safe. Problem was is it was always going off. Finally replaced it with non-gfi. I was using it for running radial arm saw, electric weedeater, drills, water softener, etc. (not all at same time) I'd like to go back to gfi's someday, but this was frustrating. I have since run some twenty amp services to ther parts of the garage (12 ga) and may consider switching some of those out to gfi's.
 
   / 500 Watt vs Amps? #12  
Actually, "GFI" breakers are "NFI" breakers - Neutral Fault Interrupters. As 19th_VA noted, they measure the difference in the current on the neutral vs. the hot. If there is a difference, then it must be going somewhere, i.e. a ground fault. The separate current limiting function of the device acts on the hot only. GFI outlets actually measure the current on the ground, which should be zero. Note that a "GFI" breaker has no ground connection! In fact, both approaches have potential limitations, but are far better than the alternative of no protection. GFI outlets are somewhat more prone to false tripping due to stray eternal currents, while GFI breakers can be fooled by certain inductive loads like motors starting up.

Also remember that consumer grade breakers tend to get more and more sensitive every time that are tripped, leading to more trips, etc. And I have seen holes burned /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif right through the side of breakers that have been run "red line" for long periods of time (years). If you have a breaker that trips often, first figure out if there really is an overload condition and if so eliminate it! If it's just continual nuisance trips, its time to retire the tired old breaker or GFI.

BTW, there has been a recent code update that will require arc protection breakers in certain installations. I've read a couple of articles about it but haven't had an opportunity to do any large scale electrical lately, so I haven't bothered really figuring it out yet. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
   / 500 Watt vs Amps? #13  
Sorry TractorlessSacto,
I have to put my .02 in here. There is no such thing as an "NFI". A GFI breaker or device senses the unbalanced load between the neutral and the hot. If it gets beyond preset limits, it trips off. A GFI device DOES NOT measure the current on the grounding conductor. Why would the NEC® Article 406.3(D)(3)(b) allow you to replace an old non-grounding type of outlet with a GFI when you have no ground available? It doesn't need a ground to even operate.
A GFI breaker does not have a ground connection, because it doesn't need one either. Has nothing to do with the ground.
Just trying to clear any misconceptions up and keep people safe.
 
   / 500 Watt vs Amps? #14  
Please, never apologise for telling me when I am wrong, particularly when there is a risk that someone might be affected by my ignorance. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

What I said what was I had been told on more than one occasion, by people I felt were reliable, and I thought was backed up by the evidence. Having been challenged, it took me only a few minutes to absolutely validate that you are correct. Although there are devices for detecting leakage current such as might exist on a ground, GFIs as required by the code absolutely do not utilize the ground.

My apologies to all.
 
   / 500 Watt vs Amps? #15  
TractorlessSacto,
No need to apologize to me /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I'm always here to help out when I can. Electricity is dangerous in inexperienced hands and I try to prevent accidents before they happen. Now if I knew as much about tractors........ /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / 500 Watt vs Amps? #16  
The terrible thing is that I am not inexperienced with electricity, ranging from low level electronics to high voltage in transmitters. I refered to my ignorance. This was actually worse- bad information. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

What is funny is that a few years ago I had a long conversation on this subject with the director of engineering of a television group- he was the one who "gave" me the term NFI. Now I am trying to figure out who else I passed on this nonsense to over the years. Interestingly, in researching the issue, I found a couple of references to this as a common myth.

The specs do show that there is a difference in the sensitivity of GFI breakers vs GFI outlets. GFI outlets have a threshold of 5mA, while the GFI breakers have a 20ma threshold. The proximity of the GFI breakers to the bus, and the transients involved, make this neccesary. There should be no effective difference in the protection afforded in either case. It has always been my opinion that the advantage of a GFI breaker is that it protects the entire circuit, while a GFI breaker protects only devices plugged into, or outlets wired downstream of it.
 
   / 500 Watt vs Amps? #17  
<font color="blue"> It has always been my opinion that the advantage of a GFI breaker is that it protects the entire circuit, while a GFI breaker protects only devices plugged into, or outlets wired downstream of it.
</font>

TractorlessSacto,

True but you don't always need all the circuits protected. And those darn breakers are expensive!
 
   / 500 Watt vs Amps? #18  
Yeah, I have to agree on the expensive part - about $30 vs. $10 for a GFI outlet. And I've had to replace two of mine... /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

It just seemed odd to me that in you could have a situation where the GFI trips, but you still have energized conductors half an inch behind the plate.
 
   / 500 Watt vs Amps? #19  
just my .02,
Are those 500w lights high intensity discharge (HID) lamps?? HID lamps include metal halide, low/high pressure sodium, and mercury vapor types. Do they glow at first and slowly go to full brilliance?? if so, they are HID. 500w seems to be an odd size. Maybe 400W?? If HID, the circuit breaker(s) must be rated for use w/HID lamps . The marking should be molded into breaker. You need to break out that circuit to a minimum of two or three. I always try to run receptacles on a seperate circuit in a work area so that you don't end up in the dark with a tool still spinning if something trips. The 14 AWG wire is too small for sure. 12 AWG is standard for a 20A circuit. 80% load standard is correct as well as GFI info.

Don't forget that electrical equipment runs on smoke like an old electrician taught me. Once you let the smoke out it doesn't work anymore.
Good luck and be careful.
DaveL
 
   / 500 Watt vs Amps? #20  
#14 copper can conduct a great deal of current without overheating. failure, (fire) in every case I've seen comes where the solid copper ends and a connection. Imagine a mobile home circuit, wire is as good as any home, outlets are cheap. A pre assembled "daisy chain" branch circuit is run before the outside sheathing is installed. Duplex receptacles are of the backwired variety, a hole in the plastic outlet passes a wire into a spring terminal gripping the wire. A wiring diagram would look like a ladder, the uprights formed by the cable interrupted at each three prong by these back wire terminals.The first receptacle's spring terminals carry the load of the full circuit. UL tests these things new not old. As time passes heated winter air leaks through these outlets to where it is cold. in cooling air relative humidity rises, as it exceeds 100% condensation begins. Net result: all winter these terminals are moist. Corrosion or at least oxidation (tarnish). Oxidized surface isn't as good a conductor. It resists the flow of electricity. As current flows through a resistor heat is produced. As heat is produced oxidation proceeds, more resistance, more heat. These spring terminals loose their temper, gripping the wire weakly, more resistance, more heat. Circuit voltage falls off at this high resistance connection. some voltage is used here in the wall converting electrical energy to heat energy. Less is available for the lamp 60 feet away. When enough heat builds up, a fire ensues.

Bad connections not wire cause most catastrophic failures in electrical circuits. I've never tried it but I bet #14 wire could conduct 40 amps before becoming dangerously hot, nonetheless a weak connection at a wire nut might cause fire at 10 amps. Why do you need to heavily load a circuit.

I take exception to using only #12 circuits, lighting load is predictable, with energy efficient lighting it is possible to light 130 11 watt LED bulbs with a 15 amp circuit. You wouldn't want every light in a house on one circuit. Trip that circuit, it's dark! # 14 or even smaller in future code editions are a good tool to reduce overcrowding in switch boxes. Do lighting only in 14, Use 12 for outlet circuits, it is hard to predict what the occupant will plug in

GFCI outlets sense balance in the "hot and neutral" conductors by passing both through a coil of wire called a current transformer. As the hot flows out creating a magnetic field, the neutral flows in creating a opposing magnetic field. The C.T. senses no field. If power flows from the hot conductor through you to the ground provided by a puddle, less will flow through the neutral conductor, The hot field, stronger than opposing neutral field tells the GFCI to shut off, interrupting power soon enough to prevent electrocution.
 

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