Total welding newie here

   / Total welding newie here #101  
Guys, this has gone way off track. If I could lock this thread I would. How about giving it a rest? You are not helping.
Thanks Carol... don't be scared away. There are many, many folk here that want to help including the ones here that derailed your thread! Please post again and learn and enjoy this forum. A lot of barking here but they don't bite. Believe it or not, this is the most respectful forum I have ever been a part of.
 
   / Total welding newie here #102  
Carol,

Don't be put off by the arguing.

I have a 120 v wire feed, a 50 Amp AC/DC Stick and a miller Blue Star 6000 and I am very much a hobbiest. All of these machines have their place, I bought the 120 v machine for fixing horse panels, the tubing is pretty thin and it really excels at that.

I have built a loader for a JD 400 just like you are starting. I built mine from a Metkit and Cad Plans. I would not try to build one with one of the 120 v machines. I built my loader with the 50 Amp AC/DC machine. The thinnest parts on the loader were 1/4" and some pieces were 1/2". I do not think you can get the penetration you need with the 120 v machines.

I hope this helps

Todd
 
   / Total welding newie here
  • Thread Starter
#103  
Thanks, guys. I am not scared off. I just thought the silliness ought to end. Peeing contests get old after a while.

As for my FEL and BH build. I do not plan to do any of that welding. Likely my brother will. He has the right equipment and experience. I just have to haul everything 10 hours to get to his place. That is why I plan on making it out of plywood first. Then I will know exactly how the metal build will go. And I will know the hydraulics will work as expected. Ought to be fun (and an unusual) build.
 
   / Total welding newie here #104  
To the OP: Glad you are still with us (I read all 11 pages).

Anyway, While I can not tell you what to buy I can tell you with absolute certainty what NOT to buy. Do NOT buy one of those little $90 115 volt flux core wire feeders from the likes of Harbor Freight, Princess Auto, or any other box store offering junk tools, etc. The reason not to buy one has nothing to do with 115 volt input portion either. The reason NOT to buy it is that the real cheapo units are AC output and flux core wire feeding (or even true mig mode with Gas) is a DC only process by design. In other words, There is not a welding wire made by any manufacturer designed to work on an AC output wire feeder. Should be illegal to sell those things but fools keep buying em because they think they are getting a deal. (Note: There are some cheap no name wire feeders out there that do operate 115 volt and output DC. If you dead set on getting an inexpensive wire feeder then look at the output sticker on the unit and verify it outputs DC and purchase one of those instead. Will cost you a few more dollars than $90 but at least you have something somewhat decent and somewhat workable to use that works as intended and you can get welding wire for it. Also there are certainly some high quality wire feeders out there from the big brands that operate on 115 volt input and operate very well within their capabilities).

Unfortunately, There is not one inexpensive do all machine out there. While there are some do everything machines out there they tend to be kinda pricey.

So the question becomes do you want to weld with a wire feeder? (easiest to learn, but gets more pricey if you add a bottle) or go with stick? (cheapest to get into welding with, but harder to learn, and stick does not do well on really thin metal)? Also what input voltage you going to power it with (115 volt or 230 volt?)

As far as wire feeders go: I really do like 115 volt capability for portability, but yes it is much more limiting in what you can accomplish on 115 volt input. I would also like to have 230 volt capability for more power. Back when I bought my Lincoln SP-135P wire feeder (a nice 115 volt unit by the way) a decade or more ago the choices were not as good as today. If I was buying a wire feeder today then I would be looking at the Hobart 210MVP very hard and waiting for it to go on sale. This unit operates on 115 volt at the same power levels as other Hobart 115 volt wire feeders, but also operates on 230 volt just like the bigger Hobarts for when more power is needed. A homeowner is not likely to ever outgrow this machine, but you are looking at $750 to $800 to just buy the welder and that is if you find the perfect sale. Gas bottle lease will further add to the cost.

So here is my run down in order of cost to get into welding:
a) $50 "no name brand" AC output 115 volt input stick welder that looks like a glorified battery charger. These typically output between 50 and 70 amps. Typically these will burn 5/64" 6013 and 1/16" 7014 rods and that is it period. Duty cycle is poor. You can make some limited repairs with a unit like this but do not expect to build much of anything as far as large projects go with it. (I own one of these things, paid $8 for it at a garage sale. I would not recommend one)
b) $100 "used" AC output 230 volt input buzzbox from Craigslist. These are a real bargain for what they will do. Will run 6011, 6013, 7014, and sometimes 7018AC in many rod diameters. Very little to go wrong with one of these simple machines so much so that I would never buy a new one. An old one will last your lifetime, your kids lifetime, and your grandkids lifetime.
c) $200 "used" AC/DC output 230 volt input buzzbox from Craiglist. Adds DC so you can run even more rod choices to your stable. Or even if you continue to use the standard ole common rods that you use on AC then when you goto DC the same rods will run approximately 10% to 15% better on DC.
d) $200 "new" no brand 115 volt volt flux core wire feeder. Expect to be limited to 1/8" and thinner metals.
e) $350 "new" dual voltage stick machine from the import manufacturers like Everlast. Can do stick welding up to about 90 amps on 115volt input or about 140 amps on 230 volt input.
f) $450 gets you into a name brand 115 volt wire feeder that will do flux core (or mig mode but bottle will be extra).
g) $500 gets you into an import 230 volt stick machine
g) $650 gets you into a name brand 230 volt wire feeder(or mig mode but bottle will be extra).
h) $800 gets you into a name brand 115volt/230 volt wire feeder like the Hobart 210MVP (again bottle will be extra).
e) Of course there are much more expensive choices too, but do they make fiscal sense for a homeowner? Only you can decide that.

I know so many choices it gets confusing. If the ultimatee goal is to have the most capability for the absolute cheapest amount of money then that is a decent 115 volt wire feeder (one that can also do mig mode with gas or in other words not a flux core only unit) and a 230 volt used AC buzzbox. Use the little wire feeder on thin metal (where mig mode excels) and use the buzzbox on anything thicker than 1/8" metal but this will take some practice to learn.

If the goal is to have the most capability for the least amount of time invested in perfecting your skills then Hobart 210MVP. (note: A Hobart 190 would be almost as capable but is 230 volt only but would save some coin if dual voltage not desired).
 
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   / Total welding newie here
  • Thread Starter
#105  
Thank you, thank you, thank you. That is the most helpful reply I have read. FWIW, I do have a small CO2 bottle that I have used to fire brad nailers on the job when I did that sort of thing. Just would need to roll it over to a fresher bottle in terms of certification.
 
   / Total welding newie here #106  
Well if you can use that bottle you already own then it would save you some money on a bottle lease which is the most expensive portion. The actual gas itself that goes inside the bottle is reasonably cheap. The nice thing about using the shielding gas with a wire feeder is that you do not have to worry about slag inclusions as there is no slag. You can also weld thinner metal with gas shielding than you can with the same welder using flux core.

I did not cover it very well in my previous post: but any mig machine can operate with either a shielding gas bottle or alternatively it can utilize flux core wire by simply switching 2 wires. A flux core only machine is strictly limited to flux core wire as it the lacks the gas valve solenoid and control circuitry.

The only downside to using a bottle is that it does not always work well when welding outside. (I personally do all my welding outside) Wind tends to blow the shielding gas away when outdoors unless you put up some temporary windbreaks which I tend to not want to hassle with. Flux core is not affected by the wind and stick welding is not affected by the wind either. Flux core does add lots of smoke and slag to the process though. The benefit to flux core in a wire feeder is the welder is more portable minus the bottle and flux core adds a bit of oomph to a lower powered 115 volt unit, but at the sacrifice of real thin metal capability.

If I had a nice fire resistant shop, then I would never use flux core. Since, I do not have a nice shop it is flux core in the wire feeder and stick welding with my bigger machines and outdoors I go.

I took my unused mig bottle and filled with 100% argon and have played some with a scratch start tig rig which can operate from almost any DC stick machine. Have not used it for anything useful at all though. Takes way too much coordination to operate the tig torch in one hand and the filler in the other. Only way I could ever do this is small table top type work with my rear end seated in a stool and my arms propped on the workbench for stability. Very few of my repair projects are work such as this.
 
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   / Total welding newie here #107  
I think Todd should clarify that when he talks about a 50 amp AC/DC welder, he is talking about a 50 amp input 230 volt machine typically in the 200-300 amp range.

Not sure where rankrank1 got his prices from but if you can find prices like that go for it. A Millermatic 140 that runs on 110 volts lists at $767.00 and it's Millers smallest MIG welder. A Hobart (owned by the same parent company) equivalent will be a little bit cheaper but might not use as durable of components. Now that I know what you're looking to do, I think a knock off 140 amp 110 MIG welder might suit you. If there's a welding supply near you that's a member of the IWDC, they sell machines branded as Weldmark. You should be able pick one of those up for around $300. I mention the Miller price because you might be able to find a good used 220 volt MIG welder for the same or less money and have the extra capacity if you ever needed it. I'm sure Mark at Everlast could give a good deal on an Everlast MIG as well. I wouldn't recommend buying a Lincoln MIG from box stores like Home Depot. They are a cheaper quality machine built specifically for box stores and the parts/consumables are different from the standard Lincoln machines sold in welding supplies. You're going to need consumables, so what happens when the box store doesn't have them? Welding supplies don't usually carry them because they can't sell the box store machines. Not sure how big your CO2 cylinder is but if it's really small won't last very long at all for welding. It's frustrating to be in the middle of a project and run out of shielding gas. It can happen with a big cylinder too but with a bigger cylinder, you can get if filled when you see it's getting low so you don't have that problem. Grinding out bad welds full of porosity is never fun and if you don't grind it completely out, the porosity will come back in the new weld. Hope this helps.
 
   / Total welding newie here #108  
I stated you will have to be patient to find one of the blowout sales on the Hobarts. There have been many posters on this forum who have bought either a Hobart 190 or a Hobart 210MVP at incredible pricing during blowout sales. Some even got spool gun promotions for aluminum included at incredible savings. They all gone now but when the Hobart 187's were fazed out TSC was discounting those things below cost. (187 is basically same machine as the 190 minus spool gun capability)

Wanna buy it tomorrow then it may not happen and I priced no Millers in my write as those are LWS only purchases and many LWS only want to deal with industrial accounts only and not so much the homeowner/hobbyist . Pricing is almost always a premium there. I have 2 LWS somewhat near me (40 minutes away). I refuse to do any business with Airshaft (aka Airgas) so that leaves the other one from Weiler's and have spent quite a bit of money there. I try to buy what I can from them but it is never at a savings. I simply do it because I do not want them to go out of business. I try to give them what gravey business that I can. That said, I work a full time job with lots of overtime and Weiler's is frequently closed when I sometimes need stuff.

Rural King, TSC, Lowes, Home Depot, Menards, etc. are open so depending on what I need and when I need it...and they only 15-20 minutes away....so whoever carries the brand I like and desire gets my business when in need
 
   / Total welding newie here #109  
It is really odd when it comes to the local LWS's. Both of the ones by me Airgas and Purity beat the box store prices on almost everything. 2 lb. spools of .035" solid wire is $19.99 at the stores and $13.00 at the LWS?? Gas is stupid at TSC 125 cu ft. was close to $60 at TSC and I get it at Purity for around $30. I can get flap wheel, grinding discs and wire brushes cheaper at the LWS also. As a member of AWS they give a 20% discount for consumables and machines also.
 
   / Total welding newie here #110  
What is an LWS?

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