Any news on gas engine CUTS?

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   / Any news on gas engine CUTS? #161  
I kind of wasn't wanting to get into this but "performance" keeps coming up and the poor diesel is being painted as something only your grandpa would drive. Today's diesel isn't you daddy's car. In 2006 Audi started racing a TDI (diesel) R10 at Le Mans and it cleaned up. While everyone was in the pits refueling the R10 sipping Diesel was busy cleaning everyone's clock. Audi R10 TDI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Diesels From Audi and Peugeot at Le Mans - Why Audi and Peugeot Diesels Rule the Le Mans Raceway The mileage numbers I've mentioned on TBN are on my chip tuned TDI. I have a custom tune, larger injectors, intake and exhaust ported. I can do more if I change turbos but my current setup will run 24psi boost. That psi boost is huge compared to what a gasser will handle. So while my TDI was 90HP stock with around 150ft. lbs. of torque, it is now around 140-160HP and has around 300ft. lbs. of torque ... around the same as my F-150. I was in the process of getting a custom tune for my F-150 engine and transmission (the factory shift points are totally ignorant), headers and exhaust work, dropping the radiator fan/clutch for an e-fan etc. ... and I would of gotten a few MPG's more. I didn't complete all these mods because I realized I wouldn't enjoy it much as I couldn't afford for it to be my daily driver. So those mods went into the TDI. So I can drive the TDI like I stole it and have all kinds of fun wearing out my tires and still get 41MPG combined. So any of you that doubt a diesel can be "performance" AND economical, just read about the Audi I mentioned our come by my house and take my car for a spin. I guarantee it will put a smile on your face.
Nothing at all pertaining to tractors but your reference to racing Àudis reminded me of my favorite rental in 2008, an Audi A6 All Road 3.0 liter. One Sunday I had to drive from Lucerne, Switzerland to Dortmund, Germany, about 650 km. I started early in the morning to avoid as much of what is usually horrific German weekend traffic around Frankfurt. The Audi had V rated tires - 240 km/hr speed rating, about 149 mph. The Audi had 7 suspension height settings, automatically set by speed or manually set. On this day the auto setting set the lowest possible mode and I was able to cruise the wider, 8 lane, portions of the Autobahn at the speed limiter. I averaged better than 7 liters/100 km for the trip and more than 160 km/hr. In US terms about 33 mpg at 100 mph. V Can't think of a large gas engine car that can come close.
 
   / Any news on gas engine CUTS? #162  
Since we're talking tractors, the gas Cruze can't do nearly the same amount of work as the diesel version so the comparison is kind of dissimilar. You have mentioned that people don't need that power in a car. Are you suggesting they don't need it in a tractor? Face it. Gasoline engines can't stay in the torque curve when a load is applied as well as diesel engines. Its a fact. Until that gas engine is developed that can match the torque holding ability of a diesel, you'll never see the return of gas engines in modern tractors.

Personally, I hate diesel engines. My current tractor is gas. My cars are gas. One's a GDI. I love it. But facts are facts and you're beating a dead horse here. Gas engines in cars designed to move people from point A to point B can't be compared to tractors designed to do hard work for long periods of time. Its two completely different tasks. While my IH2500b had a gas engine, and it could do serious work, it was only a power source for a hydraulic pump. It had to be run at near full throttle to provide the hydraulic pressure needed to turn the wheels and PTO effectively. While the diesel equivalent of the same tractor was close to the same power, it had better fuel economy and the diesel engine was simpler. Why didn't IH keep putting gas engines in tractors? Why are most tractors in the last 40-50 years diesel? Why are most (I think all) large trucks diesel? Why are train engines diesel? Ship engines? I can't think of any modern heavy equipment at all that uses gasoline for a fuel. There's a reason for that. Diesel works better in those applications because it stays in the torque curve better. Gas engines don't. :rolleyes:

For the umpteenth time . The transition to diesel from gasoline to diesel in farm tractors in the 50's ,60's and 70's was because diesel was cheaper to operate than gasoline . The cost of diesel was less per gallon, diesel had more btu per gallon and Diesel engines with higher mechanical expansion ratios had higher thermal efficiency.
Now again drag yourself out of a non emissions diesel 1970 farm tractor ploughing etx at max rated power for hundreds of hours each sling and fall.Info 2015 where diesel costs much more than gasoline per btu, Diesel engines are complex and expensive with tier IV emissions . Where the gasoline engine is not limited with a carburator, points ignition and low expansion ratios.
The topic is light duty applications in 2015 such as CUT, lawn equipment, ATV, RTV,boats , snowmobiles etc 300HP field tractors pulling a nine shank V-Ripper.
Why keep going back to 1970 and comparing gas to diesel? Look at your calendar , what is the date ?
 
   / Any news on gas engine CUTS? #163  
For the umpteenth time . The transition to diesel from gasoline to diesel in farm tractors in the 50's ,60's and 70's was because diesel was cheaper to operate than gasoline . The cost of diesel was less per gallon, diesel had more btu per gallon and Diesel engines with higher mechanical expansion ratios had higher thermal efficiency.
Now again drag yourself out of a non emissions diesel 1970 farm tractor ploughing etx at max rated power for hundreds of hours each sling and fall.Info 2015 where diesel costs much more than gasoline per btu, Diesel engines are complex and expensive with tier IV emissions . Where the gasoline engine is not limited with a carburator, points ignition and low expansion ratios.
The topic is light duty applications in 2015 such as CUT, lawn equipment, ATV, RTV,boats , snowmobiles etc 300HP field tractors pulling a nine shank V-Ripper.
Why keep going back to 1970 and comparing gas to diesel? Look at your calendar , what is the date ?

Because this is TBN and it will be argued back and forth to no conclusion until it locks. Might as well reach between your legs, pull the handle, and enjoy the Martin Baker thrill ride on this thread.
 
   / Any news on gas engine CUTS? #164  
So lets get down to brass tacks. Really this is all about preference and personal conviction. There is no right or wrong. I'm not a gas hater (I like muscle cars, lust over stuff on Overhaulin show etc.) I'm glad the GDI is making technical gains. The GDI is a little late to the party ... diesel's have been doing direct injection since 1986. The fact is (and buickanddeer won't admit) GDI and TDI (I'll use TDI for Diesel Direct Injection ... which really stands for Turbo Direct Injection but just so long as you know when I say TDI I'm talking diesel) is basically the same technology just different fuel. The GDI has nastier (by a lot!) particulate matter in the exhaust compared to TDI. The older PFI gas engines were better with polution.

So, snapshot in time ... if you're not a diesel fan and want the best bang for the buck, get a GDI now because it won't be long the GDI will look just like the new TDI's. You'll have an EGR cooler (I've had trouble with both of mine ... they don't last forever ... lots of opposing forces ... hot exhaust gas moving through a honeycomb cooled by radiator fluid around it), some kind of particulate filter (GPF is what they are called for the GDI) etc. With the new tighter regulations on MPG standards coming up, cars have to go to GDI (or TDI). But GDI pollutes more so the solution is to reduce the size of them to keep the cost of a filter system down so they can pass the forthcoming emissions. You are living in a pipe dream if you think this isn't coming. EPA hates diesel and they've already shook up that market. They hate gas too just less than diesel. You are fooling yourself if you think GDI's don't have a target on their back. If you want one, get them now! EPA won't be happy until we are all riding bicycles. We can't go back to ox carts and horses because they put out too much methane!

Making GDI's smaller will probably mean the same thing it did for diesel ... now you need a turbo so whatever it is has enough power to get out of its own way. Natural aspirated won't cut it. Look at 2.7 EchoBoost - small engine with twin turbo's to make truck power. Look at the old VW Rabbit (natural aspirated). Non turbo and what, 60HP? It couldn't do the speed limit falling off a cliff. I know, my uncle had one.

Turbo's are bombs waiting to go off. Engines of the future (gas and diesel) will be more expensive, lighter, complicated, and less reliable. Gone are the days you put gas in your Toyota Corolla and that's all you did ... you never changed the oil, radiator fluid, plugs etc. and it let you get by with that for 100's of thousands of miles.

I do preventive maintenance on my TDI. If I don't it will bite me. They are like a high maintenance female ... pay them attention and you're OK, don't and watch out. I'm about to either rebuild my turbo or just replace it. They spin at 200,000 rpm and can get cherry red if you are hammering the peddle down. If a shaft breaks it grenades the fins and sends them into the intake. Ingesting metal isn't good for anything. If a turbo oil seal fails, the diesel will "run away" (engine will ingest and run on it's own oil) and a gasser will probably get holes in all the pistons because it isn't high enough compression to burn the oil and liquid doesn't exactly compress well so something has to give and you can guess what that is. Plus the pistons on new GDI's are a lot lighter than they used to be so rods will be gone too. Basically the whole engine will be trashed.

Intercoolers can get moisture in them that get ingested too but I won't get into all that. The diesel since it has a heavier block/piston's and higher compression can survive some of these events I'm describing better. On an Aluminum block gasser ... toast!

I've chosen (again personal preference/conviction) to avoid the new generation of diesel's with high pressure fuel pumps, DPF's etc. in my cars and tractor. I'm sure the technology will mature and get better but I don't have the patience at this point in my life to put up with all this stuff ... if you keep your vehicles 4-5 years (and are OK with perpetual payments) and flip them then you probably won't have any issues. If you are like me and keep stuff 10+ years, I can guarantee you will have some serious issues. I expect around 20yrs for my tractor.

Educate yourself and make an informed decision based on your personal preferences and risk tollerance. Seek out forums that are in-the-know about the thing you are looking at and camp out there to see what people smarter than you are saying about it. That's the best advice I can give.
 
   / Any news on gas engine CUTS? #165  
Turbo's are bombs waiting to go off.
Which is why they consistently go to 200k miles without major issues in many cars (see: Volvo 700, 800, 900 and 70 series which have been turbocharged and running to 200-400k miles on the original turbo since the 80s and the many Diesel pickups since the 90s).
Yes, you have to use good oil (preferable synthetic) but turbos can go the distance.

Aaron Z
 
   / Any news on gas engine CUTS? #166  
Which is why they consistently go to 200k miles without major issues in many cars (see: Volvo 700, 800, 900 and 70 series which have been turbocharged and running to 200-400k miles on the original turbo since the 80s and the many Diesel pickups since the 90s).
Yes, you have to use good oil (preferable synthetic) but turbos can go the distance.

Aaron Z

My 2002 is coming up on 200K miles plus I've been running it at higher psi boost so that's why I'm thinking of doing something to it. I'd let it go longer otherwise.
 
   / Any news on gas engine CUTS? #167  
To throw another monkey wrench in here, a lot of big truck diesels are being converted to natural gas by lowering the compression to 8:1 and adding spark ignition. Sounds a lot like a gasoline engine to me. They'll probably last longer than when they were diesels too because of the lower bearing loads.

I'm happy with my gasoline tractors. But if I had a diesel tractor I'd probably be happy with that too. I really don't care If I spend a few more dollars per year on fuel. If a diesel injector pump goes out, there goes all your fuel savings for a long time.
 
   / Any news on gas engine CUTS? #168  
The rub is buickanddeere wants his cake and eat it too. He wants to sing the praise of the GDI (yes, lets look at the calendar ... it's 2015 and there are NO GDI BASED TRACTORS! ... which was the topic of the OP, you came up with this light duty business) in the auto industry and cry foul and teleport back to 1970 if anyone brings up attributes of auto diesel engines before 2007 or pre Tier IV (2013) tractor engines (which are not from the stone age) ... when the only GDI engines out there are basically interim engines that will look nothing like they will here in a few years.

GDI's to meet the upcoming MPG and emission standards will end up with piezo electric injectors (there are already some out there with it), high pressure fuel pumps (if you have piezo injectors, you have to have HPFP) and all the things the modern diesel's have on them today (and probably more since their particulate matter is worse). When that time comes we'll be right back to square one comparing gas and diesel engines with the same crap on them. The equipment cost between gas vs diesel will be largely errased which will come down to the cost of a gallon of gas vs diesel.

This whole argument about cost per btu is utterly useless in the way it has been used here. If we are comparing wood stoves or some method to heating your house, OK, cost per btu matters because you want the most heat for your $$$. The same logic does not hold for determining if a vehicle gets better MPG or does work cheaper than another vehicle because the power train efficiency, size and weight of the vehicle etc. becomes a factor. That is where MPG (in autos) is a better indicator of performance (give me a measurement where the rubber meets the road if you will) and diesel fuel contains more btu per gallon so physics favors it, always has, always will.

An finally, the engine in my tractor is an industrial grade engine. It is in equipment made by different mfr's. all over the world doing all kinds of jobs and I wouldn't consider any of them 'light duty'.
 
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   / Any news on gas engine CUTS? #169  
I really don't care If I spend a few more dollars per year on fuel. If a diesel injector pump goes out, there goes all your fuel savings for a long time.

In this case, "IF" is a big word!!

I've been running diesel tractors since the 80's and I've yet to loose an injection pump... I HAVE bought a carb and rebuilt a few others for my gas tractors though...

SR
 
   / Any news on gas engine CUTS? #170  
Turbo's are bombs waiting to go off..
I've been running or working around turbocharged diesel engines nearly every day for decades.
It is very rare to have a turbo failure.
I work for a paving/construction company and we have several dozen trucks/equipment and nearly all have turbo's.
Turbo's generally last the life of the engine from my experience.
 
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