Is There a Kioti that can lift 2000 lbs ?

[ritcheyvs]

About tractor gear transmissions: You don't shift a tractor like a car. You just put it in the right gear and let out the clutch. You can start from a dead stop in the top gear (like Hi-4). You do need to use the clutch to stop or to shift the shuttle shift from forward to reverse (or neutral). For jobs like mowing you just put it in the gear that delivers the desired forward speed (at PTO RPM), let out the clutch, and drive. Loader work is different because you use the foot throttle and need to clutch whenever you stop or reverse direction; still, it's normal to stay in the same gear unless you are moving a long distance and want a higher gear to go faster. IMO, for anyone who has driven a car with a clutch, driving a tractor with a gear transmission is easy. Also. the loader (joystick) and 3-point hitch (levers) are hand controls; the clutch is the left foot and the throttle and (rarely needed) brakes are the right foot.

If you are doing mainly loader work, the hydro-static transmission is faster because you don'r need to clutch to shuttle-shift and because the constantly high (and noisy) engine RPM makes the loader move faster. With a clutch,you tend to idle the engine when stopped which makes for slower loader movement.

The big drawback of the clutch-gear transmission (IMO) is the possibility of burning or wearing out the clutch if the operator is inexperienced or lazy. With your average lawn-tractor style riding mower you routinely use the clutch/brake pedal to slow down. Doing this with a real tractor will wear the clutch quickly. Replacing a tractor clutch is a big and costly job because the tractor needs to be split in half to replace the clutch disk.

From what I've read, the main drawback of the hydro tranny is limited pulling ability, especially on hills and in higher gears. The maximum torque in these transmissions is limited by the hydraulic pressure relief valve, regardless of the torque available from the engine.

Concerning purchase, your dealer is more important than the brand of tractor. If you have any problems (not unusual) a good responsive dealer is the key to happiness. Personally, I would avoid the new models with the Tier IV engine; the older version is simpler and proven. I would have no qualms about buying a used tractor (which I did) if a reliable dealer vouches for its condition. A Diesel tractor should be good for several thousand operating hours with occasional unscheduled maintenance along the way. On the other hand, there are periodic "good deal sales" on new machines where the manufacturer will include a free loader, backhoe, or some other perk. In any case, check out the nearby dealers: How long have they been in business? Talk to other customers. Check out Better Business Bureau complaints.

 

[Fallon]

A HST tranny eats about 15% of the HP. They are a bit noisier & you have to be a little better on keeping the hydro fluid clean.

The HST isn't any better worse on a hill or pulling other than a gear. In a HST the more you push the pedal, the higher the gearing more or less. When pulling up a hill, you don't go up a gear, you go down. Let off the go pedal, not stomp on it when you are lugging or need more power.

Personally I will only own a HST CUT. The utility, flexibility, precision & ease of use is just to good. I think nothing of getting within an inch of trees or the wife's plants when mowing. 3 point turn & weaving around tight obstacles is easy if you can come to a stop by just lifting your foot or change speed in a split second.

Also, the HST acts like a brake. Let off the go pedal & you come to a smooth stop (a bit aggressive in low). I don't use "brakes" any more, just a parking brake & occasionally turning brakes.

As somebody else here said. If you are new to tractors & don't know what transmission you want you want a HST.

 

[Fallon]

. From what I've read, the main drawback of the hydro tranny is limited pulling ability, especially on hills and in higher gears. The maximum torque in these transmissions is limited by the hydraulic pressure relief valve, regardless of the torque available from the engine. "

That is completely wrong. I can easily stall the engine on my HST in low range. I can put all the power down a gear could minus the HST overhead. If a HST is going into relief you need to downshift. If it was a gear tranny it would stall or lug the engine in the same situation.

 

[k0ua]

for loader work and the like a HST is the way to go. CJ

Amen. Right foot changes direction and regulate speed, Left hand on steering wheel, right hand stays on joystick where it belongs. Everything is right where it needs to be ALL of the time. Result is more work done in a given amount of time and less fatigue to the operator. Those of you that have not operated a loader tractor with a Hydrostat all day don't know what you are missing. You have constant fine instantaneous control of direction and speed, you can go Slow as a snail which is extremely handy when using forks picking something out of the bed of your expensive pickup truck!

 

[gladehound]

Just for clarity, it's not like there are two types of transmissions. There are many. I am no transmission expert but in the tractor the OP is looking at here are some of the common choices:

- Old school collar shift tranny with 3 to 4 forward gears and 1 revers gear and 2 or 3 ranges. for a total 8 - 12 forward gears and 2 or 3 revers gears. With this type of transmission, you have to come to a complete stop and wait about a second for the gears to spin down before selecting another gear or the splines of the collar will grind against the splines on the shaft. Or, you can learn to double clutch and time the shift and shift on the fly with this method (not as hard as it sounds). When working you typically pick a gear and leave it there.
- A step up is the shuttle shift transmission. These typically have 4 gears which can be run in either forward or reverse. There are also 2 -3 ranges (or more with creeper gears). These types of transmissions have varying levels of gear synchronization with the best having fully synchronized shuttles and main shafts so that you never have to stop to shift speeds or directions. But you do need to clutch.
- The next step up is the power reverser also called a hydraulic shuttle. With this type of transmission you do not need to use the foot clutch to change directions. You simply flip a lever. Hydraulic shuttles come with various main gear set ups. For example, my tractor has a hydraulic shuttle and a collar shift main shaft. So I can change directions with no clutching (tractor automatically clutches for me) but I either have to stop to change gear speeds or double clutch and time the shift. More typically, hydraulic shuttles come with fully synchronized main gears and some come with hydraulic shift main gears so that you never need to use the clutch to change main gears or directions.
- Finally you have old school HST and the newer electronic down shifting HST. I will not describe this in detail because it was done in a previous post. I just want to make the distinction between the two. With HST, you can actually stall out an engine (I've done it) if you are in too high a range. If you need more power you have to stop and shift down a range. In my experience, even in the lowest range, torque to the ground can be very limited compared to a gear tractor. This is true mostly with small two range HST tractors. I the 40+hp range I have not heard of problems getting enough torque. The electronic down shifting HST is really an amazing transmission. Basically, you can put it in high range and if it needs more torque it will automatically change ranges temporarily until the high torque is not needed. This is the ultimate in convenience. This is what you'll get on an NX but I believe the DKSE has the old style HST.
- I will not get into CVTs here since they are not popular in this size tractor.

Obviously the electronic HST transmission is the most convenient. However, it is the most expensive as well. For a given budget, you can often go up a frame size and get a bigger stronger shuttle tractor for the price of a smaller fancier electronic HST. So it depends on what your needs are.

I pull a lot of heavy loads where I'm often limited by tractor power to pull the load at a decent rate. For my money, I would much rather have a bigger stronger tractor with a gear transmission for the same money. Not only do I get more power because the transmission is more efficient, but I get more power because I have a bigger engine too. Some people minimize the difference in power to the ground between hydro and gear but it is not minimal if you compare what you can get dollar for dollar. Often the difference is 30-40% more power with the gear tractor (and more loader lift etc.)

On the other hand, if you are looking for a given size tractor and the money isn't an issue, you cannot beat the convenience of operation with an electronic HST. The older HSTs are the next best thing for convenience.

I won't get into speed of operation between transmissions, there are already plenty of heated discussions on this on TBN.

 

[Fallon]

At least in the Kubota lineup its the same tractor & engine combo. The only difference is the transmission. You are dealing with a 15% HP HST performance penalty not a 30-40%.

All HST transmissions I'm aware of are paired with a 2 or 3 speed unsynchronized transmission. You have to come to a complete stop to shift H-L or H-M-L (no clutching required though). Not a big deal. When grabbing manure from my neighbor 3-5 minutes away I have to drop to low to scoop then back to medium to transport if its a hard packed part of the pile.

The Kubota HST+ doesn't automatically shift for you. You still have to stop to do the H-M-L thing. The HST part is a 2 stage pump or something though & you can hit a switch to bounce between the high or low stage on the pump (it might be able to do that automatically too, not sure). That makes it more like a 6 speed than a 3. With a HST+ I could probably leave it in M & just toggle the H/L on the pump to load & get good transport speed without stopping to shift ranges.

Gladehound is right on for gear trannies though.

 

[k0ua]

The HST part is a 2 stage pump or something though & you can hit a switch to bounce between the high or low stage on the pump (it might be able to do that automatically too, not sure). That makes it more like a 6 speed than a 3. With a HST+ I could probably leave it in M & just toggle the H/L on the pump to load & get good transport speed without stopping to shift ranges.

It is actually the drive motor itself that is the 2 stage part. And yes it can switch stages on the drive motor under control of the ECU automatically also.

Of course it has the auto throttle function also as well as operator control of the modulation of the directional changes from fast to slow.

A pretty darn nice package. Yes it cost's more money than a standard hydrostat, but it offers many nice features.

 

[gladehound]

At least in the Kubota lineup its the same tractor & engine combo. The only difference is the transmission. You are dealing with a 15% HP HST performance penalty not a 30-40%..

My 30-40% difference is when you compare dollar to dollar, not machine to machine. So I'm talking about what you can get with a gear transmission for say $20K vs what you can get for the same $20K with the latest and greatest hydro transmission (or 30K or 40K, whatever your budget is). When you add in that hydro tranny you are adding money to the purchase price. Alternatively, you could spend the same money on bigger engine option or better yet a whole different tractor that is only built with a gear transmission. So I'm talking about comparing 45 hp gear tractors to 35hp hydro tractors. Example would be a 45 hp Kioti DS versus a 35 hp Kioti CK or DKSE. These are about the same money. Engine hp alone is 33% more then add in the decreased efficiency of the hydrostatic transmission. This is where I got 30-40%.

I haven't looked at the Kubota line up but how does a small gear M tractor compare price wise to an L HST? I'd bet there isn't much difference and the M is more tractor. That is the only point I was trying to make. Kioti also offers gear and hydro in many models, but you have to go outside the models offered with hydro to get the most gear tractor for the money. And when you do this you get 30-40% more power for the dollar and sometimes much better loaders and more weight as well (at least it's that way with both Kioti and JD - JD example 4000 series vs. 5000 series).

 

[huskyhauler]

Just got a quote for an NX4510 HST with KL6010 loader and 72"bucket for $39,700.
That is a bit more than I was expecting.

 

[vtsnowedin]

Just got a quote for an NX4510 HST with KL6010 loader and 72"bucket for $39,700.
That is a bit more than I was expecting.

What does the nearest JD dealer want for a 5045E for comparison?