"Charging Button on 12v conversion"

[MarlinSlayer]

Well I bought my Jubilee from a guy who didn't know much about them. It's got a little button (Relay I suspect) that you have to press in order to get the altenator to actually charge. When you press the button after start, sure enough the ammeter jumps up.

If you don't remember, I burned up a starter that was already smoking trying to get the tractor to start after replacing points, condenser, wires, cap and plugs. Finally got the oled Jube home and removed starter and had it completely reworked. Only got it to crank once.... and when I hit starter again, I heard solenoid click and nothing else. Voltages all seem wrong, and I compared the wiring briefly to the 12v wiring diagrams and noticed none had a charging button. I've seen a restored one with what looked like a button in the middle of the cluster...but it could have been a light. I've searched the web and parts store and can't find a reference to afore said button.

This is the restored tractor...is that a light or a charging button

Is the charging button standard, or is it some kind of aftermarket genius of some guy who thought he had a good idea.

As far as the starter is concerned. When it doesn't crank, I hear an initial click of the solenoid, then nothing...then on repeated attempts, do not hear the solenoid click. Lights will not work at that point. disconnected battery, waited a while, then reconnected the battery and I could get the solenoid to click and then nothing. This happened the first timeI tried to crank tractor. took out starter hit it with jumpers, it spun, so I re-installed it, tightened ground, then cranked it once with plugs out. next time I cranked it, solenoid clicked, then nothing...on additional attempts, solenoid would not click and lights would not work. I suspect there might be something wrong with starter solenoid and am thinking about doing a complete rewire as the existing connections look pretty poor. This is when I found that my charging button didn't appear on any parts list.

Any help? I checked the Battery of unknown age and it is strong. Is this a grounding problem, or do solenoids go bad and short out a little?

What about this mystery charging button?

On a side note, I looked at serial number today and I think that this was the last Jube made in '53...next number is a 54 model....does that make it any more valuable? I'm going to check compression if I can ever get it to crank consistently. rumoured to be rebuilt about 4 years ago, and except for a bad dogleg and a rough grill, some other cosmetics it ran strong until it wouldn't start. Proof meter says 450

 

[MarlinSlayer]

also, are there quick tests to see if a starting solenoid is good...they are cheap I think so I don't mind just replacing it. I am handy with a voltmeter....how about tests on the voltage regulator?

 

[pmsmechanic]

The charging button is just there to turn the alternator on so that it charges. If you replace the button with a light it will do the same thing only you won't have to push the button to make the alternator charge.

The symptoms you describe, to me indicates a really poor battery connection somewhere.

 

[Soundguy]

charge button.. had to giggle a bit.

Someone was a bit too lazy to put a 194 lamp or a diode in line from the switched side of the key to the #1 terminal on the alt. #2 terminal on the alt should loop to the charge stud ( assuming this is a gm 10/12 SI alt ).

If you use a diode, get one at least capable of 1a, 50PIV, though 3a / 200 piv is preferred. the diode has a stripe.. strip goes toward the alternator.

The diode method will be automagic. the lamp method will work as follows: key on= lamp on, after starting and getting over 400 rpms or so, lamp flickers out as alternator starts charging.

to test a 4 terminal iso base solenoid, remove it from the tractor and wireing, then simply hook power to one small terminal, ground to one small terminal, and see if she clicks. if yes, hook bat to one large terminal, and a load to the other large terminal, ( a lamp will do ). if it passes this, reinstall on tractor and test.

 

[MarlinSlayer]

Thanks! I'll let you know

 

[MarlinSlayer]

Ok, I checked all my grounds, got the battery all good and tight and starter starts. While looking around under hood, wiring is very ugly. Oil pressure guage is very rusty and pressure line looks questionable. I also have gas on the underside of the tank and it is always "out of gas" the wet spot is near the front mounting area by what looks like some felt. There appears to be a spring mounted mounting bolt up there. Please tell me there is an orifice up there that is there on purpose that just needs a new plug....otherwise time for a new tank. If I'm going to do that then off comes the tins and also a new wire job. And to think this started with new plugs and wires. I've got some more questions I'll put in another thread. Thanks Soundguy....I think you'll be my new best friend.

P.S. When I uninstalled the "charging button", you should have seen the West Memphis engineering job on this thing....many washers and "engineered" plastic to take up the slack so the bezel threads could engage. It's gonna get a light. I imagine the 12v dash lamp at Steiner is ok?

 

[Soundguy]

For an alt lamp, get something with a 194 bulb, like a trailer marker lamp. I dont know what the Steiner lamp is, but off too high wattage it wont isolate the ignition, plus you can't use it for a dash lamp if it I setup as an iso lamp.

Sounds like front seam of the rank, not uncommon.. You might lune the tank, but replacement will be less hassle.

 

[buickanddeere]

Why phart around with a momentary contact switch? use a proper diode.

 

[MarlinSlayer]

Cause I didn't know any better. ;-)

 

[MarlinSlayer]

Couldn't find a diode so I tried an LED idiot light oriented the right way. I don't think it'll do the trick because the light never goes out. Alternator output only 12.5 so I think I'm reading Bat voltage.

The radio shack around here closed. I gotta find another source for the diode.

 

[Soundguy]

or just use a REAL idiot lamp. the led won't work....

 

[MarlinSlayer]

or just use a REAL idiot lamp. the led won't work....

Yeah.......that's what I get for thinking too much. I figured "Heeeey Light Emitting Diode ....that oughtta work!" Funny thing is that I had to go to a meeting out of town. Right near the meeting was a Radio Shack....Two diodes, 2:99.....and they had the same LED light that I paid $10.00 for at AutoZone for $2.00....go figure. I think I will just leave the LED light in the dash until I get a proper instrument light. #1 Fills the hole, #2 wife gets confused reading an ammeter..."does that mean electricity is going in or out????"...I can explain a number of times, it doesn't matter until she wants to learn....easier to say "If the light comes on when its been running a while....let me know".

Also, I am spending a little cash on a new radiator, maybe a tank, new gaskets, hoses, etc......so I can wait till next spring for the light....I'm not trying to make it original....yet. I need a working tractor now. This one won't earn a pretty retirement until it gives me a few food plots and I can provide a replacement with a FEL. I'm a pilot....if I can't retire till 65 now....neither can the Jubilee.....

This little red tractor has gotten under my skin a little.....when it does obtain Tractor Emeritus status, I'll probably still keep it. (Like I need more stuff). But modern tractors with a FEL just don't look right pulling a hayride trailer or a float in the parade. Also, as I get older....and I don't want to try to hoist a deer on the back of a four-wheeler, I figure a carry-all on the back on the three point would be a good way to get a deer to the front of the farm.....scooping them up in a FEL bucket just doesn't strike me as very romantic.

SoundGuy....you're like the big brother i never had.

 

[MarlinSlayer]

The charging button is just there to turn the alternator on so that it charges. If you replace the button with a light it will do the same thing only you won't have to push the button to make the alternator charge.

The symptoms you describe, to me indicates a really poor battery connection somewhere.

Dude you hit the nail on the head (or in aviator parlance...You shacked it). I had another thread.....of all things, the inside of the positive terminal had a black oxidation lining where it contacts the battery post. The good thing is that before I figured that out, I took apart EVERY connection that the Battery connects to, to get to ground to the frame and cleaned it up. the Positive cable had a vinyl liner on the connection head the exact color of the terminal that connects to the post which explains why I couldn't jump it to start the few times I tried. It is chewed up a bit and looks like a veteran terminal connector. If you look closely at the connector, you can see a faint line where the insulator stops and the metal is exposed. Never seen a battery terminal connector with a grey insulator bonded to the terminal....red boot yes, but not this.

 

[MarlinSlayer]

Soundguy,

Funny thing I noticed, whenever something doesn't work that you suggest, it's usually because they didn't follow your explicit instructions verbatim. In my case, I didn't want the aesthetics of a marker lamp dangling around...so I went wanted a diode and couldn't find one. I know this is not news to you....but I figured it might be somewhat cathartic to know that I probably should have followed your instructions the way you intended. :thumbsup:

 

[Soundguy]

If you get your diode polarities correct, cathode to #1, anode to key, then you can just parallel your new diode with the led.. When it starts to charge, lamp will go out.. Just like an idiot lamp

Once alt charges, potential at #1 matches battery (key), thus no current flu from key to #1, thus no lamp

 

[MarlinSlayer]

If you get your diode polarities correct, cathode to #1, anode to key, then you can just parallel your new diode with the led.. When it starts to charge, lamp will go out.. Just like an idiot lamp

Once alt charges, potential at #1 matches battery (key), thus no current flu from key to #1, thus no lamp

You said Parallel...did you mean put the diode in series with the LED lamp, otherwise, wouldn't that defeat the purpose?

 

[Soundguy]

If I said parallel, why would I mean series!

If you dont understand current flow, might be time to read up on ohms law!

Before the alt turns on there is a potential difference from bat to #1, after alt is on, no appreciable potential difference. Takes a potential difference for current flow. Takes current flow to make a lamp or led light. thus key on, machine not running, lamp glows, once alt comes on, potentials equalize, no current flow from key to #1, thus no lamp... The diode and led do the same thing, the diode just allows for more current in the circuit when parallel. If you series them, you are stuck with the minscule current flow of the led, and the alt won't excite via #1....

 

[pmsmechanic]

Think of it this way. The alternator is - until it's charging. Then it puts out +. The other end of the bulb it hooked to the key switch and is +. When the alternator is not charging the bulb has a + and - and so the bulb lights up. When the alternator is charging the lead turns to + and the light goes out. Two +'s turn off the bulb.

 

[Soundguy]

Didn't I just say that.

 

[pmsmechanic]

Didn't I just say that.

I know and yes you for sure did but it was in engineers language and while I understand, I know many people don't. I just remember how enlightened I felt when I finally understood how a charging light works.