Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety.

   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #1  

Dadnatron

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2016
Messages
1,185
Location
Versailles, KY
Tractor
JD 5100e with FEL
I have 3 options for a driveway install.

1st is the most desirable location for driveway, but has total road frontage (county road with interspersed large trees) with roughly 680ft total frontage giving a max of 340ft site distance either direction.

My 1st preference would be to have the driveway at the Green T point on the pic. But at the East end of the road, there is a small hill (at the current driveway) which precludes visualization over it. And to the West, there is the slight turn in the road at the large LIGHT BLUE *.

A 2nd alternative would be the BLUE T point on the map which gives a slightly better sight line both ways as it is almost in the direct middle of the 680ft. Again, it has the same hill to the East and turn to the West, but it is more central to both.

3rd is the least desirable (for me) but has a total frontage of 860ft giving a midline driveway possibility with 430ft site distance either direction. But this would probably be the 'safest' when entering the road, given its longer 'stopping distance' available to anyone coming around the corners onto this short straight stretch.

As can be seen on the Sat Map, there are lots of trees lining the road... right on the road, along both sides. This is a very rural but paved road in Kentucky Bluegrass. I don't know the actual legal speed limit, but the typical drive speed is around 35-40mph along most of them. This hill and these small turns slow people a bit.

My conundrum is that 3 gives a 'better' sight line theoretically, but is more inhibited by trees. It would allow for a longer 'stopping sight distance' than either 1 or 2 however. I also like this location the least for my land.

1 and 2 are much more preferable to my goals, but has a shorter stopping sight distance. However, there are also fewer trees in the way to block visibility to the person entering the road.

I know that I have seen 'sensors' put into roads which will alert drivers that a car is coming on a poorly visible street. When a car has crossed the sensor, it causes a 'light on a cross street' to blink, thereby notifying the cross street traffic someone that can't be seen is close by and on the way. I don't exactly know how they work, but would assume they are magnetic and in the roadbed. I was thinking that given the limited sight distances on ALL locations, that perhaps I could install an alert sign for both directions on the road as well as the driveway. But, I don't have a clue where I would begin looking for something like this, and I was hoping someone out there would have some insight into something along those lines.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this issue? I will need to solve this problem before I can begin road construction on this part of the property.

Driveway questions.JPG
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #2  
Well I don't know your area, but looking at the pic, I can't believe 5 cars a day use that road. I hate bad sight lines from a driveway, but a lot depends on the traffic. With minimal traffic, you may be overthinking it. Is there really any traffic there? If not, put it wherever it makes sense for you. If you think suburb expansion is coming and it might be a lot busier in the future, then perhaps you have some more thinking to do about where is best.
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #3  
Not sure how far #1 is from the turn and that would be a concern for me but it looks like you could maybe improve your line of sight by taking down one tree between your proposed location and the turn. How far from #1 to the turn? Maybe #2 is a good compromise if you think #1 just is too close. With respect to #3, it seems that 430ft (almost 1 1/2 football fields) of stopping distance is way more than needed for 35-40mph. I wonder if there are any civil engineers lurking here?
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #4  
Sometimes the state or county will make the choice for you, no matter what you want.

Are all these choices really available?

Bruce
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #5  
Put it in any location.
Where I am working , my main access is to 45mph truck route. I have 150 sight distance to the left due to curve.
I have not seen accident in the six months I have worked here
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety.
  • Thread Starter
#6  
Sometimes the state or county will make the choice for you, no matter what you want.

Are all these choices really available?

Bruce


This is something I am endeavoring to ascertain. But finding the 'people' who make that decision is more difficult than it would appear reasonable.

I have 'heard' 5 sec stopping distance. But I don't have any idea whether that is accurate nor whether that relates to this property, given that I don't know that ANY of the options available on this road would qualify.

I am in the process of finding the person in Zoning who would have the specific information.
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #7  
Wouldn't it be Department of Transportation people, not the zoning people?
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #8  
If you are going to have a mailbox out there, maybe you should check with the post office. Their delivery vehicle is the one most likely to get wacked by a careless driver or passed by a speeder who then hits an oncoming head on. If there will be a schoolbus making stops on the road, check with them, too. Same reason.

In my experience, the 5 cars a day roads are the most dangerous because the few cars who travel it will always be well over the speed limit. Winter especially. As long as you can see cars to the left of you for exit and entrance, you will be OK.

Put your driveway where its message will be: "Anybody coming up this drive had better have a good reason to be here". Plant lines of trees along it and set the house where you can see the few vehicles a day that travel the road. The car cruising for trouble is the one you want to discourage: Gates, fence, alarms and signs.
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #9  
When the DOT was approving a driveway for my property, (power line project), I talked to the inspector and he stated the usual requirement for a sight line is ten times the speed limit. According to him my current driveway would never get approved if I filed for the highway permit today. The local speed limit is 35mph I would need at least 350' of sight line in either direction for approval.
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #10  
I have a 30' easement from the county road into my property. Driveway location was not a concern. I have approximately 500' line of sight in either direction. This is all well & good. The real concern is those that drive like a BOH on the county road. I alway wonder - where in the world is the fire???
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety.
  • Thread Starter
#11  
This particular stretch does not lend itself to 'bat out of ****' driving, although I am certain there are a few who try. Other roads in the vicinity are traveled far more than this particular road and at much higher speeds. But, honestly, if you are coming up on a car heading in the opposite direction, both of you are riding the edge of the pavement with your passenger side wheels, just to sneek by. Add to that all the turns and hills which block sight along with the trees 3ft off the paved road, and top it off with all the dualies pulling horse trailers on this road, and the speed really can't be that fast. BUT... that doesn't mean much to that one idiot who happens by at an inopportune moment.

I need to contact the County and ask them. I suspect they will be my biggest factor in driveway placement.
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #12  
If you put the driveway right at the corner would you be able to see down both straight sections, or neither?
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety.
  • Thread Starter
#13  
If you put the driveway right at the corner would you be able to see down both straight sections, or neither?

Neither... there are trees along both which would preclude seeing anything until you were on the road completely.... I thought of this and stood on the shoulder.
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety.
  • Thread Starter
#14  
Was able to get in touch with the County Road Engineer, nice guy... Every County agent I've met has been very helpful.

He said they 'try' to get 300ft visibility in both directions, but can't sometimes. He thinks we can get it close to where I want it to be.

Going to set up a meeting and see what he says while on the property.

Thanks for your help.
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #15  
Was able to get in touch with the County Road Engineer, nice guy... Every County agent I've met has been very helpful. He said they 'try' to get 300ft visibility in both directions, but can't sometimes. He thinks we can get it close to where I want it to be. Going to set up a meeting and see what he says while on the property. Thanks for your help.
Good luck with your meeting. Sounds like 300ft is plenty to me. At 35mph (51fps) you have about 6 seconds. Go out and time yourself for a stop at 35mph. I'm guessing you do it with a couple seconds to spare.
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #16  
Have you thought about moving a little further down past the Black T you placed and having the drive follow the tree line?
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #17  
Driveway sight lines are an important issue. There are others such as these that I had to follow when I had my 20 ft wide x 330 ft long gravel driveway installed at my former ranch in Tehama County, CA.

The gravel driveway had to be connected to the paved county road by paving the last 20 ft of driveway and including "wing" connections where the driveway met the road.


9.14.030 - Driveways.

    
All driveways shall provide a minimum ten foot traffic lane and unobstructed vertical clearance of fifteen feet along its entire length.

A.

Driveways exceeding one hundred fifty feet in length, but less than eight hundred feet in length, shall provide a turnout near the midpoint of the driveway. Where the driveway exceeds eight hundred feet, turnouts shall be provided no more than four hundred feet apart.

B.

A turnaround shall be provided at all building sites on driveways over three hundred feet in length, and shall be within fifty feet of the building.


(Ord. 1537 § 1(part), 1991)


9.14.031 - Gate entrances.


A.

Gate entrances will be at least two feet wider than the width of traffic lane(s) serving that gate.

B.

All gates providing access from a road to a driveway shall be located at least thirty feet from the roadway and shall open to allow a vehicle to stop without obstructing traffic on that road.

C.

Where a one-way road with a single traffic lane provides access to a gated entrance, a forty foot turning radius shall be used.

(Ord. 1537 § 1(part), 1991)

Good luck
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety. #18  
Maybe you already have resolved this point, but you need to know who has jurisdiction over the road. It depends on "whose road it is" here. If it is a State Hwy, County road, or township/city road, the requirements are all a bit different and so is who you have to ask for the permit. So that might be a good first question to ask the county engineer when you meet him. Assuming can get to be expensive if you assume wrong...but if you already know the answer, then you should be good to go. Just making sure...
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety.
  • Thread Starter
#19  
Who is responsible for the road is a very good point.

My property is on 2 different roads. One is County (this one) and the other end abuts a State road. The other end of the property already has an access point in about as good a location as is possible, although not great. This portion does not have access in that we are sectioning off about half the land of a previous 'block'. The old place had 2 access points, in good locations, but we are only taking land consisting of one. The other access will remain with the initial owner. (and when I say initial... this land has not left the family since it was granted to the family line in 1776)

As far as access, the County Engineer seemed to really understand the difficulties with the roads in this area. There are hills and turns with entrances all over the place which wouldn't be allowed given the 'code'. But the 'code' would basically cut out access to 50% of all land simply because there isn't enough space to follow a blind piece of paper.

I'll meet with him and see what happens.
 
   / Driveway install - Short site lines. Need alternatives to improve safety.
  • Thread Starter
#20  
Flusher... I appreciate the information.

I know I need to plan turnouts because it is likely this driveway, even just to the house, will be over 1000ft at least.

I've been trying to decide on the width... ANY SUGGESTIONS?
 

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