A Question for Sailors

   / A Question for Sailors #41  
Isn't this the truth; Air France 447 is a classic example. The pilots continued to attempt to climb with the aircraft in a full stall.

With Steve's indulgence....... Roddenberry wrote about this in the 60's...... people using advanced technology, but retaining enough detailed knowledge to fix/patch/modify those same systems at will. Checking to see if I was spelling his name correctly..... turns out he flew 89 combat missions in WWII. He later was writing sci-fi for television, but chances are he knew a thing or 2 about fix/patch/modify and flying by the seat of his pants, albeit in another era.

Air or sea, today, I'd argue that it is probably more critical now than ever to have people that are intimately knowledgeable, and fully engaged with, the details of these complex systems. Otherwise, you're just a passenger.

While my preference is usually to see a competent human in control, at the same time, I have trouble understanding why these systems (esp. non-military) don't have certain KEEP OUT defaults programmed. We had a BC ferry a few years ago that hammered into an island in the middle of the night (I recall it as something like 50 miles long - definitely not small). Ship sank, with at least 2 lives lost. That ship is still at the bottom of that sound, last I heard.

Multiple ships moving in close quarters is one thing, complexity wise. OTOH, what reason could there be for heading at high speed on a collision course with a large land mass ? Land masses normally don't move, at least in human time-scales.... With today's systems, collisions like the ferry one I just described, and possibly the Concordia, might be avoided by having at least several over-ride codes required. Modern telemetry can easily report safety-overrides to centralized control, allowing another level of oversight, and the possibility of dead-man control.

Rgds, D.
 
   / A Question for Sailors #43  
   / A Question for Sailors #44  
As a result of my mistake yesterday, my auxiliary membership in POEM (Professional Organization of English Majors) has been suspended. I have appealed the decision and hope to improve my chances of winning my appeal by pointing out grammatical errors at every opportunity.;)


Steve

An auxiliary of "English Majors" sounds suspiciously like a branch of the Grammar Police (Reserve).

Or are you more of a Corrections Officer? :scratchchin:
 
   / A Question for Sailors #45  
If you have questions on the large container ship hitting the USS Fitxgerald...................watch this and a lot of questions will be answered. It's a long video, but worth watching. Conspiracy Theory?:confused3:

~US NAVY SCRAMBLING~!! TRUTH REVEALED! FITZGERALD ATTACKED TWICE!! - YouTube

hugs, Brandi

That leaves me with even more questions than answers. Once you study the pics, it's pretty clear the fitz was not moving. There's not any scraping or signs of a glancing blow.

Brett
 
   / A Question for Sailors #46  
Makes me think that I don't want to be on the road with "self driving cars".
 
   / A Question for Sailors #47  
You know, we put men on Cargo vessels so that they can avoid collisions (and collusions :)) , and keep the machinery in good order. The dang ship could pilot itself all the way across the pacific, as some of our drones have done, and it could come into port and dock itself too. But they ARE manned. Or supposed to be. Of course the stupid autopilot, when it hits something is just going to throw on more power because of the speed loss of pushing a DDG thru the water sideways. And of course it will resume the base course when it can.

There is quite a bit of work happening right now to create drone cargo ships. Some very big players are involved. They say this will drive down shipping costs but the numbers I have seen says the cost of the ship's crew is small in the grand scheme of things. Most of the crews are from third world countries and are paid peanuts compared to US/EU flagged vessels. The problem with ships without crew is how will they fix problems that will happen and how will they see vessels not using AIS or who do not show up on radar? Even with crew supposedly on watch it is hard to see smaller vessels but at least there is a chance the crew is looking and might see someone. There simply is no way for an automated ship to see some vessels...

Later,
Dan
 
   / A Question for Sailors #48  
Could it be that the navy vessel was 'electronically cloaked' and the merchant ship's radar did not see it?

Fighter aircraft have that feature and I understood some navy ships also have the capability.


Doubtful. The DDG can likely jam radar but if it was jamming the cargo ships radar it almost certainly would have affected other similar ship radars in the area. Doing this is one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world would be criminal and would not go unnoticed.

Both ships should have had navigation lights turned on so anyone with a Mark I eyeball that bothered to look should have been able to see. Figuring out what the lights mean at night and/or poor visibility can be tricky which is why radar and AIS is so important.

Later,
Dan
 
   / A Question for Sailors #49  
There's too much at stake here: new SECDEF and President will be looking for real answers. I'd say the skipper will be very lucky to be able to retire in grade. Commander Benson isn't an academy grad; he's toast IMHO.

I don't think Mattis or Trump will have anything to do with this, and if they did, I don't think Mattis would let the DDG captain off the hook unless there is something else going on here we do not know about. I think Mattis would nail and tan the captains hide to the wall if this is a "simple" collision, in any case, this will be handled farther down the chain of command.

I cannot think of any recent USN collision, grounding, or other screw up where the captain and many of the ship officers and NCOs where not canned. This happened to the minesweeper that hit a reef in the PI, the SSN that hit another US ship, the USN cruiser that ran aground off Hawaii, the patrol boats that got captured by the Iranians, etc.

The recent incident where the cargo ship hit a USN ship screen a carrier will be interesting. Did the captain of the USN ship mess up or follow orders and allow a collision to prevent the cargo ship from getting past the carrier screen?

Later,
Dan
 
   / A Question for Sailors #50  
I've posted in another thread about a parallel problem in commercial aviation. People have become used to automatic systems doing the "thinking", and planes have been flown into the ground or a vertical stall due to a relatively minor error in an automatic system. In an older, less "advanced" era, many of these crashes probably would have been avoided by a competent pilot.

There's also the problem of data "smog". With a blizzard of information coming at you, it can be easy for a critical piece of information (esp. one that the system hasn't been programmed to escalate appropriately) to be obscured.

...
Rgds, D.

I don't think bugs in the navigation software is the problem with this incident. I have never read of a navigation incident were a bug in the software caused an incident. However, there are plenty of incidents were the misuse of the software did cause collisions and resulted in deaths.

One of the problems with this technology, and especially GPS, is that people are trained by just using the equipment to think that what is on the chart plotter is accurate to some huge degree of precision. Now, the GPS might be accurate, but the CHART used to show the position of the vessel maybe off by miles. One of the charts used the USN minesweeper that ran aground in the PI was off but almost 8 nautical miles! This is why one should use charts from different sources and hopefully running on different redundant systems.

An around the world race sail boat ran aground in the Indian Ocean a year or so ago even though they had the best charts and equipment available. On these racing boats, unlike other crew members, the navigators only duty is to navigate and I think worry about weather. The navigator simply did not zoom down into the electronic chart to see if there were any islands or reefs along their course. :rolleyes: Their sail boat ran into a reef at a good rate of speed. :confused3: Thankfully, no body was killed and the boat was eventually hauled off the reef an repaired.

There was likely a similar incident where a couple were cruising north in the Caribbean sea. The set a course on the autopilot and eventually ran into an island. They both died. The best guess is that they set the course but did not zoom down into the chart to see the island in their path. :(

Another guy was sailing solo and set the auto pilot way point off an island. The auto pilot sound an alarm when the vessel came to the way point but the captain was asleep and slept through the alarm. He woke up when the boat hit the island. :(

I know of more incidents but I think those make the point that while the technology is fairly robust, there are limitations that need to be understood. In the DDG incident, I have not seen the AIS tracks for other vessels in the area at the time of the collision. There had to be many, many more and may have played a role in the incident. In any case, the crew has to be ready and able to handle the vessel if these fancy dancy navigation system fail. This is one reason one should have at least two separate navigation systems. The boat we were on last year in Scotland and Ireland had two such systems, one a PC that ran the chart plotter along with other shipboard systems and the other chart plotter was an Android tablet with its own GPS. This was a good thing because the PC was running Windows, and while going up a twisty river, the PC did a Blue Screen of Death. :shocked::mad: Now, it was daylight and one just had to use the Mark I Eyeball and the reboot was not a big deal. Just a PITA since the chart plotter was simply providing us with information on what was around the next bend. The Irish and Vikings had been sailing up that river for centuries without fancy dancy systems so we should be able to manage and did. :D But that BSOD could very well have distracted someone like enough to go aground. One has to know when to ignore some problems and focus on what is important. :laughing:

Being overloaded with information in heavily traveled areas is a real concern. One way to deal with this is following the traffic separation zones in heavily traveled areas. I have not heard if the DDG was in one of these areas much less if it, or the cargo ship, were in one of the shipping lanes. Being overloaded with information could very well overwhelmed a bridge crew on cargo vessels which are lightly manned. USN ships are usually not in that situation though I wonder about the LCS's which have small crews by design.
 

Tractor & Equipment Auctions

2019 INTERNATIONAL LT625 TANDEM AXLE SLEEPER (A52577)
2019 INTERNATIONAL...
2010 Ford Edge SE SUV (A51694)
2010 Ford Edge SE...
2013 Chevrolet Caprice Sedan (A50324)
2013 Chevrolet...
1998 John Deere 544H Articulated Wheel Loader (A50322)
1998 John Deere...
2014 Gillig G27B102N4 31+56 Low Floor Passenger Bus (A50323)
2014 Gillig...
2014 CATERPILLAR 349FL EXCAVATOR (A51242)
2014 CATERPILLAR...
 
Top