B-17 Lost at CT Airport

[Industrial Toys]

I was watching an NTSB briefing about the crash and got to thinking. Commercial pilots have simulator training. They have taken off loosing and engine. In private service, a pilot could have a million hours of smooth sailing flying which would not prepare him for certain failures.

 

[Diggin It]

Enlighten me.

Sully: Hudson river plane crash investigators object to their portrayal | Film | The Guardian

 

[fried1765]

I was watching an NTSB briefing about the crash and got to thinking. Commercial pilots have simulator training. They have taken off loosing and engine. In private service, a pilot could have a million hours of smooth sailing flying which would not prepare him for certain failures.

Your statement is not accurate.

Before the days of simulators for commercial (airline) pilots, all pilot training was done in actual airplanes, because there were no options.
I spent many hours being trained flying actual large transport type aircraft.
We did the same practice engine failures, and other practice emergencies
The training was essentially the same in a real airplane, as it is today in a simulator.
A simulator is simply exponentially cheaper to operate, and a vastly more efficient use of time and of manpower.

It seems that you are stuck on the B-17 crash being caused by something the pilots did, or did not do.
I prefer to believe, until proven otherwise, that something other than pilot malfeasance was the cause of the crash.

 

[Industrial Toys]

It can't be as accurate and valuable an excercise outside of a simulator where there is no danger. Isn't it more a case of pretend this, now what would you do? I don't think anyone is going to kill two engines on a four engine prop plane midway through takeoff as an excercise.

 

[fried1765]

It can't be as accurate and valuable an excercise outside of a simulator where there is no danger. Isn't it more a case of pretend this, now what would you do? I don't think anyone is going to kill two engines on a four engine prop plane midway through takeoff as an excercise.

Why would anyone practice loosing two engines "midway through takeoff"?
Depending on the particular aircraft performance statistics (primarily weight), you have an extremely high probability of crashing, no matter what you do.
There is no good reason to practice crashing in a simulator,.... except just for fun.!

 

[Industrial Toys]

I didn't know that failure under those circumstances was quite so gloomy. May be what happend to the B-17.

There must certainly be failures practiced in a simulator that would not be chanced in real life. That was my point.

 

[MossRoad]

Anyone know how the PIC managed to log 7,000+ hours in one of these??

He was 75 years old and had been with the company that owned that plane for 20 years. If you ever go to some of these events, like they have held here in South Bend, IN many times over the years, they'll sometimes come in for air shows a week or two ahead of the show, and take people for rides all week long. 10-20 half-hour flights a week is 5-10 hours of flying time. That ads up over years and years and years.

When I worked at the airport here in SB, we had several air shows, and history events. One company, the Confederate Air force (now called the Commemorative Air Force) brought in a B-17 and a B-29 and they stayed here for a month, giving many flights in the B-17.

Another time, someone came for an air show and brought a B-17(can't recall which company). After the air show, it had mechanical troubles and could not take off. It stayed here in SB for a month for repairs. When the repairs were completed, they wanted to take it for a test flight and offered me a free ride. I offered the ride to my foreman, who was about 10 years older than me, because, well, only one of us could go and he was older (I'm a good guy). So he goes up, they fly around, and upon landing, they smacked the tailwheel so hard it collapsed up into the fuselage! Scared the bajeebers out of him! The plane had to sit here in SB for a couple months for repairs after that.

 

[MossRoad]

I didn't know that failure under those circumstances was quite so gloomy. ...

We used to hangar a certain twin engine business turbo-prop that was grossly underpowered. If it was loaded anywhere near capacity, and lost an engine on takeoff, they called it a negative rate-of-climb. You'd have zippo altitude and airspeed to return to the field, so they just kept that in mind and always looked for open fields, roads, etc... BEFORE they took off!

 

[fried1765]

We used to hangar a certain twin engine business turbo-prop that was grossly underpowered. If it was loaded anywhere near capacity, and lost an engine on takeoff, they called it a negative rate-of-climb. You'd have zippo altitude and airspeed to return to the field, so they just kept that in mind and always looked for open fields, roads, etc... BEFORE they took off!

As is the case with many light twin aircraft, the 2nd engine purpose is often described as being necessary to carry you to the scene of the crash.

 

[bcp]

Many years ago I read that the chance of a fatal crash was higher in a light twin with one engine failure that in a single with one engine failure.

Bruce

 

[MossRoad]

Many years ago I read that the chance of a fatal crash was higher in a light twin with one engine failure that in a single with one engine failure.

Bruce

That's a warm and fuzzy now, ain't it? :laughing:

 

[ovrszd]

I thought about posting these pics earlier. Then decided to wait until only those seriously concerned about these old planes continued following this thread.

My Dad was stationed in England for four years. Assigned to 44th Bomb Group as a truck driver. He hauled bombs, fuel, parts, crews, whatever was needed to support these crews and planes.

I took these pics from the book he brought home.

When I was a little kid, maybe 5 or 6 years old I looked for his name on the Roll Call Roster in the back of the book and circled his name.

 

[ovrszd]

I'll post these in no particular order. But a strong point I want to make. These planes were/are extremely durable and flyable. As the following pics will show, they were designed to survive hard times. The crews displayed courage beyond our imagination. Nothing fancy or comfortable about this at all. Seat of the pants flying thru Hellfire and brimstone. Not just because my dad was involved, but more because of my Military Career, I marvel at the things these men accomplished and I applaud every one of them.

The crews were allowed to name their planes. They were also allowed to design a picture to be painted on the fuselage. Here are several examples.

 

[ovrszd]

Dad talked frequently about waiting on the flightline for the bombers to return from their missions. A very somber, quiet, nervous wait. Suddenly someone with binoculars would shout here they come!!!!! The fire trucks would be lined up along the landing strip. If possible the healthy planes would land first and clear the runway. While that was going on the non essential for landing crewmembers of the shot up planes would parachute out. Only men remaining were pilot, co-pilot, wounded and dead.

When a crippled plane came in the firetrucks would try to pace themselves racing down the runway to parallel the plane as it touched down. They would try to be spraying the plane with flame retardant as it slid to a stop.

One by one they would attempt to land. Sometimes with only one wheel down, sometimes on their belly. Sometimes on one or two engines. Someone made a comment earlier about these old planes not being sound. That's B.S. These planes are a mechanical marvel.

 

[oldballs]

Thanks for posting, Richard. Once in awhile a WWII bomber flies into the KCMO downtown airport. I run outside as soon as I hear that unmistakable drone. Sometimes a formation of other WWII planes passes over much to my delight. Give thanks to the greatest generation as they are called.

My Dad worked at North American Aviation during WWII.....making the B-25. That was a remarkable aircraft also.

Cheers,
Mie

 

[ovrszd]

It's hard to imagine what it would have been like to be a crewmember. Dad being ground support had no experiences to offer me in that regard. I've had 3 elderly friends over the years that were crewmembers. I have gotten some knowledge of the experience from them. Very hard to imagine.

In some of these pics you can see black puffs of smoke. That is anti-aircraft fire. The round is set to explode at a certain elevation. It's full of shrapnel. Hope is the plane will fly thru this scattered flak and receive damage. Once a damaged plane can no longer stay in formation is becomes a target for the enemy fighter planes. Sometimes our fighters could escort the crippled planes. Sometimes not. Those that were on their own rarely made it back to base. Sometimes the flak damage was catastrophic and instant.

 

[747driver]

I am a retired aircraft mechanic ( 27 yrs. ) with United. Taxied everything United flew and various foreign carriers as well. Required once a yr. to go to Denver and train in the simulators ....which for us knucklebusters was a yearly fun field trip ! That being said...the simulators are as close to 'real flight' as you can get. They will make you sweat and pucker !!! Even though all I did was taxi it still required both mechanics to work together to get the aircraft moved...I worked at O'Hare airport. At the end of each session we were allowed to practice flying ! Yes...many times we augured it into the ground, but sometimes the landing was smooth as silk. Not sure what happened with the B17, but it was something that happened quickly after take-off with no altitude to allow room for recovery to land. How many of you watch "Ice Pilots" on the weather channel ? Great show and the real life experiences of Buffalo Airways flying those old aircraft !

 

[ovrszd]

I've got many, many more pics of target sites and crews of the 44th. If by some slim chance you know of any friends or relatives that might have been involved, give me their information and I'll gladly look thru the crew pics and Assigned Roster for their name or picture.

Of all the Military things I've saved thru my 40 years of military service I value this book the most. It connects me to WWII in a personal way. I listened intently to the many stories my Dad told of his experiences with the 44th.

When they came home they flew in the remaining Bombers. The planes were gutted of their guns and bomb racks, etc. This lightened the plane and made space for ground crews to board. One of their stops was Greenland I believe. But it might have been Iceland, not sure which. Anyway the airstrip was located in a mountainous area. Winter time with everything snow covered. The landing strip was short for the Bombers. When they got ready to leave Dad crawled forward into the nose gunner area. That area is glass. Great view from the nose of the plane. His plane was in the middle of a large group. When they left the runway they had to climb the face of a mountain to clear thru a pass. There was a smoldering plane almost to the top crashed into the mountain side. Those men had survived the war. Then died flying home.

Having came home 4 times from War it breaks my heart to think about that. As a First Sergeant I worried most about my Soldiers when we were "short". I lectured them constantly about not taking any unnecessary chances. Too far in to die now.

 

[ovrszd]

Here's an excellent picture to put a face on all this.

The crews always had a mission briefing before they flew. This pic was taken at one of the mission briefings.

I never thought about it during my career. But now when I look back I realize how young the face of war is.

 

[747driver]

I've got many, many more pics of target sites and crews of the 44th. If by some slim chance you know of any friends or relatives that might have been involved, give me their information and I'll gladly look thru the crew pics and Assigned Roster for their name or picture.

Of all the Military things I've saved thru my 40 years of military service I value this book the most. It connects me to WWII in a personal way. I listened intently to the many stories my Dad told of his experiences with the 44th.

When they came home they flew in the remaining Bombers. The planes were gutted of their guns and bomb racks, etc. This lightened the plane and made space for ground crews to board. One of their stops was Greenland I believe. But it might have been Iceland, not sure which. Anyway the airstrip was located in a mountainous area. Winter time with everything snow covered. The landing strip was short for the Bombers. When they got ready to leave Dad crawled forward into the nose gunner area. That area is glass. Great view from the nose of the plane. His plane was in the middle of a large group. When they left the runway they had to climb the face of a mountain to clear thru a pass. There was a smoldering plane almost to the top crashed into the mountain side. Those men had survived the war. Then died flying home.

Having came home 4 times from War it breaks my heart to think about that. As a First Sergeant I worried most about my Soldiers when we were "short". I lectured them constantly about not taking any unnecessary chances. Too far in to die now.

It was a grand day when your 'short' calendar said 0 ! Went to the terminal at Udorn RTAFB Thailand 3 hrs before flight taking us back to the States. Just waiting and watching for the C 141 Starlifter to arrive to get us to Clark AFB for the ride back home. Those aircrews did an amazing job in shuttling us troops back and forth across the pond !