Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet

   / Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet #101  
For supplemental heat you could install Mini Splits. No ductwork required. That technology is improving quickly.

I'm on a slab with hydronic in floor heat propane fired. I also have a propane HVAC system with air to air exchanger. My installer said I can heat my house cheaper with the HVAC system than with the hydronic in floor heat system. But that won't make my floors warm.

I'm certainly not pimping propane. I'm just pointing out that there are so many variables, including location which drives fuel costs, that it's hard to make valid comparisons. So it comes down to personal preference.
 
   / Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet #102  
Interesting that your installer says in floor heat is more expensive than hvac. I've loosely considered in floor heat but basically give it a pass because of the work involved. My house is open concept, rectangular shape and vaulted ceiling down the length - with a second floor "hallway" between the bedrooms is open on the one side that looks down onto the first floor. across the one side of the second floor are bedrooms, the other side as I said is vaulted ceiling coming up from the first floor - if you can picture that. Because it's so open my wood stove at one end of the house can heat the whole house with almost no difference in temp from one end to the other. (with the aide of 3 ceiling fans although normally I only run one fan.) The whole main floor is flagstone. But no underfloor heating. In my laundry room I actually had to lift up the flagstone when I did a renovation there - and found I could get them up without too much difficulty. But the thought of doing the whole house and putting in underfloor heating is not something I think I will go thru with unless I win the lottery! But I've always thought if I could heat that floor that would be the perfect heating solution. (Hence my surprise that your installer thinks hvac is cheaper to run than in floor. but maybe it's based on house design.)
 
   / Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet #103  
Interesting that your installer says in floor heat is more expensive than hvac. I've loosely considered in floor heat but basically give it a pass because of the work involved. My house is open concept, rectangular shape and vaulted ceiling down the length - with a second floor "hallway" between the bedrooms is open on the one side that looks down onto the first floor. across the one side of the second floor are bedrooms, the other side as I said is vaulted ceiling coming up from the first floor - if you can picture that. Because it's so open my wood stove at one end of the house can heat the whole house with almost no difference in temp from one end to the other. (with the aide of 3 ceiling fans although normally I only run one fan.) The whole main floor is flagstone. But no underfloor heating. In my laundry room I actually had to lift up the flagstone when I did a renovation there - and found I could get them up without too much difficulty. But the thought of doing the whole house and putting in underfloor heating is not something I think I will go thru with unless I win the lottery! But I've always thought if I could heat that floor that would be the perfect heating solution. (Hence my surprise that your installer thinks hvac is cheaper to run than in floor. but maybe it's based on house design.)

These discussions always have a lot of perception involved. Perception of what's acceptable in regards to cost, efficiency, comfort, etc.

For example, my previous house had a thermostat in each room. The entire house was always the perfect temperature for the particular room you were in. The house temperature ranged 5F degrees. That was by design and personal perception.

Your house heats with wood with, according to your perception, "no difference in temp from one end to the other". I might walk thru your house and think differently because of my perception. Your perception might change slightly if you used a temp indicator and checked the temp of a piece of furniture in the same room as the wood stove, then checked a piece of furniture in the lowest, farthest room from the stove.

Our house temp varies 3F degrees with our floor heat, no zones, one thermostat centrally located. My perception is we have a large variance in temps. That perception is based on coming from a house that I could control in each individual room. Now the variance is out of my control and is noticeable. If I was to ever do another floor heat house it would be zoned. My current house should have 3 zones to get that ideal "perception" of proper heat in each area.

In regards to operational costs. Again, it's all about perception. I believe my HVAC guy. I am 100% sure I can heat my house cheaper with the air to air exchanger 90% of the time. I.e., temps above 10F degrees. I am 75% sure the propane fired high efficiency furnace will heat the house cheaper with temps below that 10F degree mark.

But, as he said, that won't make my floors warm. It is impossible for me to explain the feeling of radiant floor heat. The colder it is outside the warmer it feels in the house. It's equally comfortable regardless of what you are doing, standing, sitting, laying in bed, standing naked in the bathroom after a shower. It's that way because everything you touch is the same temperature. It's not colder over by the exterior wall. Your head isn't warmer than your feet. That is not obtainable with any type of forced air heat, including a wood stove.

Because you can't flip a switch and get instant satisfaction from floor heat it requires some pre-planning. An adjustment of the thermostat will take at least 24hrs to be truly reflected in your perception of warmth/coolness in the house. That has been the hardest thing to get used to. I was accustomed to instant satisfaction.

Best part of radiant floor heat is the non-invasiveness of it. In day to day use you never know it's there. No air blowing around. No noise. No dust/dirt. No vents to keep exposed. No strategic placement of furniture to get the best heat result. You can utilize every square foot of floor space.

I think it would be extremely hard to add hydronic floor heat to a house. But people do. So house design would come into play. We knew we were using it when we built. We are on a concrete slab.

I cut wood for 40 years. I never minded doing it. Now I never miss it and wouldn't even consider going back to it. Burning wood is not cheap and when compared to modern heating devices is rarely efficient.
 
   / Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet #104  
These discussions always have a lot of perception involved. Perception of what's acceptable in regards to cost, efficiency, comfort, etc.
.
.
...I cut wood for 40 years. I never minded doing it. Now I never miss it and wouldn't even consider going back to it. Burning wood is not cheap and when compared to modern heating devices is rarely efficient.

I was agreeing with everything you said...right up to the last sentence.
I bought house in 1995. Two ~ 250 gallon fuel oil tanks & furnace in basement, and a woodstove. I think I filled oil tanks for ~89 cents/gallon in 1996. Burned maybe 1/2 of that in 22 years. Started to get worried about age so changed filters, topped them off and treated them ~3-4 years ago. Fuel is fine. I'd like to see something cheaper with less carbon footprint than wood.

I bought a $1700 (I think) wood splitter years ago that was an extra expense. Stored inside, runs ~20-30 hours a year. It's still probably worth most of that. (i.e. probably cost <$20/year)
I'm going to own a truck, tractor, trailer, chainsaw regardless, so I don't consider those extra expenses.
My time that I spend "exercising" to fill the wood shed is additional money I don't spend on a gym membership....so I actually make money burning wood!

So not only are perceptions significant, so are rationalizations (aka: "Figures lie, liars figure") :D
 
   / Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet #105  
I was agreeing with everything you said...right up to the last sentence.
I bought house in 1995. Two ~ 250 gallon fuel oil tanks & furnace in basement, and a woodstove. I think I filled oil tanks for ~89 cents/gallon in 1996. Burned maybe 1/2 of that in 22 years. Started to get worried about age so changed filters, topped them off and treated them ~3-4 years ago. Fuel is fine. I'd like to see something cheaper with less carbon footprint than wood.

I bought a $1700 (I think) wood splitter years ago that was an extra expense. Stored inside, runs ~20-30 hours a year. It's still probably worth most of that. (i.e. probably cost <$20/year)
I'm going to own a truck, tractor, trailer, chainsaw regardless, so I don't consider those extra expenses.
My time that I spend "exercising" to fill the wood shed is additional money I don't spend on a gym membership....so I actually make money burning wood!

So not only are perceptions significant, so are rationalizations (aka: "Figures lie, liars figure") :D

See. Here we are back at perception.

Some would say you were not being very efficient to buy 500 gallons of fuel oil that you still have twenty years later?? But that's their perception.

Some would say the operational cost of your truck, tractor, trailer and chainsaw have to be factored into the cost of burning wood. But that's their perception.

Some would say the exercise justification doesn't hold water because you could get that exercise doing other property related tasks. But that's their perception.

Some would say perceptions are a simple form of rationalizations. :D
 
   / Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet #106  
ovrszd,


I cannot imagine anything being cheaper than wood. I buy my wood in 8' lengths and process it. Even buying wood, it is still cheaper than any other heat source. My '"free" wood makes it a no brainer.

I am 69 and invested about $2000 this year to make processing easier and to eliminate double handling. I hope to heat with wood for another 10-15 years. Just had a load delivered last fall. Cost was $1300 (normally $1600 but got a deal) and it should yield about 16 cords. About 3 years of fuel.

20 logger cords.jpg

I would never be totally dependent on electrical heat because of where I live. A power outage in Missouri may make your house uncomfortable...here in Michigan, it is considerably more serious. It was one reason I stayed with propane when I upgraded my furnace last year. Being totally dependent on wood is also a poor plan at my age...LOL But wood is a significant savings and we love a wood fire.

In the end, people must weigh their costs, the degree of effort they wish to make, and their circumstances. But to make a blanket statement that wood is not efficient is incorrect.
 
   / Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet #107  
ovrszd,


I cannot imagine anything being cheaper than wood. I buy my wood in 8' lengths and process it. Even buying wood, it is still cheaper than any other heat source. My '"free" wood makes it a no brainer.

I am 69 and invested about $2000 this year to make processing easier and to eliminate double handling. I hope to heat with wood for another 10-15 years. Just had a load delivered last fall. Cost was $1300 (normally $1600 but got a deal) and it should yield about 16 cords. About 3 years of fuel.

View attachment 635922

I would never be totally dependent on electrical heat because of where I live. A power outage in Missouri may make your house uncomfortable...here in Michigan, it is considerably more serious. It was one reason I stayed with propane when I upgraded my furnace last year. Being totally dependent on wood is also a poor plan at my age...LOL But wood is a significant savings and we love a wood fire.

In the end, people must weigh their costs, the degree of effort they wish to make, and their circumstances. But to make a blanket statement that wood is not efficient is incorrect.

Dang it, had my response all typed out and then lost it.... :)

I burned wood for many years. Enjoyed it. Owned the timber so I've never bought a single piece of wood for burning purposes.

So using your example above, you spend $500 per yr to purchase your wood and then have to process it. You've purchased an additional $2K in equipment that you expect to use for 10 years so there's an additional $200 per yr. We won't even touch the operational costs of your equipment. There are many members on here that will tell you they heat their homes for less than that each year without handling any wood. And we haven't even touched what you spend each year in propane which you obviously use or you wouldn't have updated your furnace.

I'll stand by my statement about wood not being efficient. If you analyze the BTUs of heating product you produce versus the BTUs of heat you utilize in your home and compare that ratio to modern heat systems you'll find wood heat is not efficient.

Various heating systems are now producing incredible results in regards to their efficiency. An example would be the chimney on your newly upgraded propane furnace and what it's made out of? If you purchased an energy efficient system it's using plastic pipe for a chimney. Mine uses a 2" rigid plastic pipe. What does your wood stove use?

So again, we are back to perceptions. I would never claim to tell someone what they should heat with. Just as there are many varieties of "perceptions", there are many varieties of "heat systems". :D
 
   / Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet #108  
I wouldn't buy a pellet stove. I have a clawfoot wood stove that I can burn cord wood in, but i also buy wood bricks, basically the same thing as wood pellets but in convenient brick form. Price per btu is roughly the same as buying cord wood. I used to buy unsplit wood and split it but with a full time job and family, it's tough to find time to split, stack, and season wood, so I was buying it by the cord. Then I found the wood bricks and they're priced about the same, but it's easier to stack and move, and it's much cleaner.

I have an oil furnace as well, provides baseboard hotwater heat as well as hot water to the taps. Thermostat is set at 68 and the house is 70-72 through the winter because of the wood stove.
 
   / Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet #109  
If I was 30 years younger, I'd have 2 things. One, a metal roof on the house because a standing seam roof is forever and Two, a water furnace. Have a good friend, much younger than I am, that had a water furnace installed in his home. It heats and cools. One unit. I think (not sure) but his total energy bill is about 30 bucks a month, year around, heating and cooling the entire house and it gets cold here in the winter and fairly hot in the summer.

It's a closed loop system, filled with glycol.

if I didn't have access to free corn and cheap propane and I was a few years younger, that is the route I'd go. For me, free field corn means free heat. Hard to beat that.

My electric usage increased with my geo units. I doubt anyone is running one for $30 a month.
 
   / Heating. Propane vs Electric vs Wood Pellet #110  
There is no such thing as free field corn no matter how many times it is mentioned.
The reality is someone else is paying to heat your house. Whether you choose to let that person do that on an ongoing basis is a personal choice. I have always preferred to pay my own bills.

That is my perception.
 

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