Price Check Kubota L2501 (2017)

[rScotty]

We hear these stories about a person losing their tractor because the original buyer sold it without paying it off. Frankly I don't doubt it has happened, but I'll bet is very rare.
As something to be concerned about, it all sounds a bit far-fetched to me.
If that were true and common, then the entire used tools, used goods, re-purposed materials, and all the 2nd hand markets would collapse tomorrow. Including EBay.

It may well be that a signed receipt - a bill of sale - is all that can be reasonably required of a 2nd hand buyer, and that it is the finance company who has the responsibility to prevent a fraud.
I believe that division of responsibility would make more common sense, and expect a judge might see it that way too.

I wonder what we are missing while discussing this that would be obvious to a person trained in law.
rScotty

 

[Fallon]

We hear these stories about a person losing their tractor because the original buyer sold it without paying it off. Frankly I don't doubt it has happened, but I'll bet is very rare.
As something to be concerned about, it all sounds a bit far-fetched to me.
If that were true and common, then the entire used tools, used goods, re-purposed materials, and all the 2nd hand markets would collapse tomorrow. Including EBay.

It may well be that a signed receipt - a bill of sale - is all that can be reasonably required of a 2nd hand buyer, and that it is the finance company who has the responsibility to prevent a fraud.
I believe that division of responsibility would make more common sense, and expect a judge might see it that way too.

I wonder what we are missing while discussing this that would be obvious to a person trained in law.
rScotty

In different terms...

Somebody breaks in & steals a Rolex.
Thief sells you the Rolex.
Cops find the Rolex.

While you arent likely to face legal action if they believe you didnt steal the Rolex, you are going to loose it. It's the rightful property of the original owner (or the insurance company) not the person who purchased the stolen goods. The stolen tractor won't be any different. If somebody takes something without paying for it, that's theft. A judge will side with the original legitimate owner. The scam victim can go after the person that sold them the stolen equipment, but they are likely to be impossible to find if they are any decent at scammpin or just broke if they did it out of desperation. So you'd be in the legal right, but trying to squeeze blood from a rock mostly.

It's going to be a lot harder or at least more tracable to pull off. But you just have to look at how many attempted scams there are on Craigslist to extrapolate the chances are non-zero. It's much less of a risk for smaller stuff as that is purchased outright, or any loans for it are unsecured (like a credit card). The creditor doesnt have the right to the stuff on an unsecured loan. The finance company has the ability to mitigate the potential for fraud or theft by repossessing the machine.

It's not going to be that big of a deal for automobiles as the VINs &plates are tracked by the DMV. So again harder, but definitely not impossible to get away with. But with tractors & what not, they are a secured loan & eligible to be repossessed. And many buyers wont do the due diligence of checking with a dealer or the OEM to see if there is a risk there. I'm going to guess the likelyhood of a tractor being financed outside of the OEM is reasonably low, but again not zero.

 

[rScotty]

In different terms...

Somebody breaks in & steals a Rolex.
Thief sells you the Rolex.
Cops find the Rolex.

While you arent likely to face legal action if they believe you didnt steal the Rolex, you are going to loose it.
SNIP
So you'd be in the legal right, but trying to squeeze blood from a rock mostly.
SNIP
And many buyers wont do the due diligence of checking with a dealer or the OEM to see if there is a risk there. I'm going to guess the likelyhood of a tractor being financed outside of the OEM is reasonably low, but again not zero.

Interesting that you mention going to a dealer to check. Do dealers even do that? Has anyone hear asked their dealer? How many dealers would be willing to sign a statement that the serial number was clean?

I've bought and sold my share of tractors - mostly used. I've never checked with a dealer so I just do not know the answer.
But I doubt that most folks would be willing give up something they had paid for just because someone else said they would rather have it.
rScotty

 

[goeduck]

It may well be that a signed receipt - a bill of sale - is all that can be reasonably required of a 2nd hand buyer, and that it is the finance company who has the responsibility to prevent a fraud.
I believe that division of responsibility would make more common sense, and expect a judge might see it that way too.

Not at all true. This is not the decision of a judge, nor is it the responsibility of the finance company to prevent fraud.

The lesson when buying used equipment of any significant value is to do your homework. Also be cautious of deals that seem too good to be true.

 

[goeduck]

But I doubt that most folks would be willing give up something they had paid for just because someone else said they would rather have it.
rScotty

it is not a matter of them asking you to give it up because they would rather have it. I suspect that if you interfere with their repossession you will be talking to the sheriff and they will have the legal paper work and you will have nothing.

 

[Fallon]

Interesting that you mention going to a dealer to check. Do dealers even do that? Has anyone hear asked their dealer? How many dealers would be willing to sign a statement that the serial number was clean?

I've bought and sold my share of tractors - mostly used. I've never checked with a dealer so I just do not know the answer.
But I doubt that most folks would be willing give up something they had paid for just because someone else said they would rather have it.
rScotty

Sign something? Probably not. But any maintnance work they do gets tracked via their computer systems when they plug the VIN in. The second they plug in a stolen VIN it's going to alert them as to its status. Pretty trivial for a dealer to plug in the VIN just to see if its flagged.

It's not a matter of being willing or somebody saying they would rather have it. If you are in possession of stolen property you dont have a legal right to it. Try & hang onto it & you are going to be in legal trouble.

There is likely only a certain windows of likely risk. Most OEMs only finance out to 6 years or so. Beyond that old a tractor is much less likely to have a lien against it. Not impossible at all, but less likely. Used tractor financing is a lot less common & harder than used car financing, in the very little but I looked a while back.

 

[rScotty]

Not at all true. This is not the decision of a judge, nor is it the responsibility of the finance company to prevent fraud.

I see it as a matter of relative responsibility.
Take as an example the type of event we are discussing - where a dealer works with a finance company to sell a tractor to a person who then resells it to me without having completely paid for it. Everyone in that chain of events bears some responsibility for what happened.

I don't know how a judge would divide up the responsibilty between the various parties, but I do have faith in our fair legal system. And I know that as the last person in that chain of events, I am the person with the least responsibility of all. I had no ability to change - or even to be aware of - the behavior of any of the people who caused this problem. Therefore I have less responsibility for their conduct than they do. There is no way it falls entirely to me to make them whole again.
rScotty

 

[goeduck]

I see it as a matter of relative responsibility.
Take as an example the type of event we are discussing - where a dealer works with a finance company to sell a tractor to a person who then resells it to me without having completely paid for it. Everyone in that chain of events bears some responsibility for what happened.

I don't know how a judge would divide up the responsibilty between the various parties, but I do have faith in our fair legal system. And I know that as the last person in that chain of events, I am the person with the least responsibility of all. I had no ability to change - or even to be aware of - the behavior of any of the people who caused this problem. Therefore I have less responsibility for their conduct than they do. There is no way it falls entirely to me to make them whole again.
rScotty

The dealer has zero responsibility if the original buyer sells to you without paying off the loan
The original buyer is a skunk and a fraud for selling it to you without paying the loan off
You would be the unfortunate one out of money
The finance company owns the tractor, you do not
There is nothing for a judge to rule on, the finance company owns the tractor, you do not.

I have a bridge I would like to sell you, the Golden Gate Bridge to be exact. Wire me $10,000 and check with the state of CA to see if you own it. Same thing.

 

[rScotty]

The dealer has zero responsibility if the original buyer sells to you without paying off the loan
The original buyer is a skunk and a fraud for selling it to you without paying the loan off
You would be the unfortunate one out of money
The finance company owns the tractor, you do not
There is nothing for a judge to rule on, the finance company owns the tractor, you do not.

I have a bridge I would like to sell you, the Golden Gate Bridge to be exact. Wire me $10,000 and check with the state of CA to see if you own it. Same thing.

No, I don't see it that way at all.
But I see where this is headed. It sort of takes me back to my school days in the 1950's deep South.
A time of Hot rods, Drive ins, Sputnik, Polio, Friday night football, and teen-age concern about what the future would look like.

And here we are again replaying the ancient, "What is the basis of morality?" argument which goes like this:
"Should morality be based on existing unchallengeable authority or evolve to match changing societal mores?"

Shucks, that morality debate has been going on for a few hundred years at least. And still neither side has a clear winner. It's remains a 50/50 game.
You go your way and I'll go mine.
rScotty

 

[BRMyers]

If you watch Tractor Time with Tim, you will see that he bought a stolen tractor. The short version, he is currently out the money and the tractor trying to sue to get his money back. The law appears to be on his side against the action company, but buying from an individual, my guess, you are out the money. Yes, you could go after the seller, but the money you gave the seller is most likely long gone and would cost you a fortune in legal fees to try to get it. Since the individual did not have the legal right to sell you the tractor, the sell would be consider invalid.

Just my 2 cents.

Stolen Tractor! What Happened? - YouTube