Corona Virus #7

[JamesHW]

I suspect that physical distancing is impossible on a ship. I would think you need to implement epidemic protocols very early and maintain isolation of the ship strictly. Can you imagine trying to decontaminate an aircraft carrier? How do you insure that the crew you put back on the ship is disease free? How long will the ship be out of commission? I would be very surprised if the military hasn't thought about epidemics.
Chris

I read that the difficulty in decontamination is one of the reasons the two hospital ships, Hope and Comfort, are not intentioned to be used for virus patients. There is hesitation to put key deployable assets at risk. Decontamination on something as large as a ship presents unique challenges while the ship is in use. I guess whole compartments could be sealed off and subjected to high heat and humidity to kill any virus. Roaming UV light robots such as in use to decontaminate hospitals could be useful. But I guess eventually having a crew that has resistance to the virus works best for readiness since physical separation is so difficult.

 

[IslandTractor]

And when you watch the video, and all those hundreds of young men and women shouting, cheering, and pressing into a large crowd to cheer the captain.... all of them are breaking protocol to contain this virus, doing exactly what they should not be doing. Gathering in a group, spraying water vapor droplets out of their mouths as they shout and cheer, and breathing in deeply. And while it may sound cruel and heartless, there's something to be said for chain of command, and lack of discipline, as is displayed right there. Young people think they're invincible, and old people need to lead them to do the right thing. That wasn't the right thing for that moment and that situation.

Yes. And while I'm of two minds regarding the removal of the Captain, seeing that he allowed his crew to mass like this during an epidemic makes me lean towards approving of his departure. That is exactly what you don't want the crew doing. The Navy has protocols for dealing with epidemics on board and they have public health officers in addition to medical/surgical clinicians. As the Captain noted in his leaked memo, "we are not at war". There is no reason to allow large groups like this to form. Isolate bunkmates together. Let them come to the mess two or three times a day in small groups or even better deliver meals to their cabins. I gather they are in port so there would be many sailors who don't have regular duties to perform. Institute mask wearing (note that none of the sailors in the video are wearing masks). Lots of simple things to do that could limit but not stop spread of the virus. Navy deals with this sort of thing regularly during flu season etc so this isn't their first dance.

I also think the Captain somewhat over called the threat to his crew. There are probably almost no sailors on board over the age of sixty. Probably 90% are less than 35 years old. Almost no one has serious chronic disease. In other words this Navy crew is at very very low risk of serious illness. Certainly way lower than any member of the nursing or medical staff in a NYC hospital. Yes, with 4000+ individuals on board and even a 0.1% mortality rate for healthy sailors, there could end up being a handful of deaths. However, sending 4000 sailors to shore with 5% already infected, it wouldn't take long to overwhelm Guam's limited medical resources so it isn't clear that the sailors would be any better off ashore. Additionally, as most estimates figure somewhere between 30-60% of the world's population will eventually be infected with this virus, it's not like shutting down the carrier is going to prevent many sailors from eventually being infected anyway.

I appreciate that the Captain is loyal to his crew but the logic that led him to write that memo is flawed. Sending the memo to anyone but his immediate superior was also a mistake. Sad to lose a good officer like this but it happens all the time in the Navy when **** happens on their watch. Certainly similar to the principle that virtually every Captain whose ship goes aground, almost regardless of reason, will be relieved of command too.

 

[riptides]

Maybe the Captain just wanted to go home to his family.

 

[IslandTractor]

I suspect that physical distancing is impossible on a ship. I would think you need to implement epidemic protocols very early and maintain isolation of the ship strictly. Can you imagine trying to decontaminate an aircraft carrier? How do you insure that the crew you put back on the ship is disease free? How long will the ship be out of commission? I would be very surprised if the military hasn't thought about epidemics.

Chris

The virus isn't stable at room temperature on any surface. While you can detect pieces of the virus (RNA specifically) for a couple of weeks, there is NO evidence that those pieces of virus are infectious. Viable infectious virus probably is present for no more than a few days. Finding viral RNA (that is the test we are all using) is like finding bits and pieces of automobiles in the desert...you don't have a working vehicle just because you can find a wheel or an engine block laying around. Routine cleaning with disinfectant would almost certainly be adequate.

 

[wheelbuilder]

That being said, when it comes to contagious or communicable deceases how can properly followed isolation not stop it? Unless its being distributed by other means deliberately. Like dumped from a plane in the upper atmosphere. Or even distributed by vial from people around the globe.

I think the problem is people being people. We all do and understand things differently enough that isolation could get messed up. There are also those who won't follow directions, they have to be an exception.

 

[rswyan]

I believe that by the time that the gathering in question took place, the Captain had already been relieved of his duties and the Executive Officer was the one in command.

So it wasn't really a matter of the Captain allowing it.

 

[IslandTractor]

I think you'll find that doctors - particularly doctors involved in public health like Dr. Fauci or Ohio's Director of Public Health, Amy Acton - tend to hedge their bets as far as any specific time frames go.

They recognize the virus itself gets a vote.

Exactly. No physician ever as said that quarantine for 30 days is enough to end this pandemic. Quarantine now and reassess as more data comes in. I'll be stunned if Fauci agrees with stopping the current recommendations to stay at home by the end of April. I'm guessing we will be in this mode for at least May and possibly to mid summer. You can't stop isolation just because we've gotten over the peak. It will be many weeks after that before it is safe to let up. I'd say for example that there is no chance that kids will finish this school year except at home.

 

[IslandTractor]

I believe that by the time that the gathering in question took place, the Captain had already been relieved of his duties and the Executive Officer was the one in command.

So it wasn't really a matter of the Captain allowing it.

Probably true but in that case we need a new XO too!

 

[airbiscuit]

I am also of two minds about this situation. My guess is that the Top Brass was more concerned about bad PR for the White House than they were about the welfare of the Sailors. I an guessing the Captain had multiple pleas that went unanswered. He will have to live with the consequences of his actions, the Top Brass will have to live with theirs.

 

[shooterdon]

Yes. And while I'm of two minds regarding the removal of the Captain, seeing that he allowed his crew to mass like this during an epidemic makes me lean towards approving of his departure. That is exactly what you don't want the crew doing. The Navy has protocols for dealing with epidemics on board and they have public health officers in addition to medical/surgical clinicians. As the Captain noted in his leaked memo, "we are not at war". There is no reason to allow large groups like this to form. Isolate bunkmates together. Let them come to the mess two or three times a day in small groups or even better deliver meals to their cabins. I gather they are in port so there would be many sailors who don't have regular duties to perform. Institute mask wearing (note that none of the sailors in the video are wearing masks). Lots of simple things to do that could limit but not stop spread of the virus. Navy deals with this sort of thing regularly during flu season etc so this isn't their first dance.

I also think the Captain somewhat over called the threat to his crew. There are probably almost no sailors on board over the age of sixty. Probably 90% are less than 35 years old. Almost no one has serious chronic disease. In other words this Navy crew is at very very low risk of serious illness. Certainly way lower than any member of the nursing or medical staff in a NYC hospital. Yes, with 4000+ individuals on board and even a 0.1% mortality rate for healthy sailors, there could end up being a handful of deaths. However, sending 4000 sailors to shore with 5% already infected, it wouldn't take long to overwhelm Guam's limited medical resources so it isn't clear that the sailors would be any better off ashore. Additionally, as most estimates figure somewhere between 30-60% of the world's population will eventually be infected with this virus, it's not like shutting down the carrier is going to prevent many sailors from eventually being infected anyway.

I appreciate that the Captain is loyal to his crew but the logic that led him to write that memo is flawed. Sending the memo to anyone but his immediate superior was also a mistake. Sad to lose a good officer like this but it happens all the time in the Navy when **** happens on their watch. Certainly similar to the principle that virtually every Captain whose ship goes aground, almost regardless of reason, will be relieved of command too.

You make too much sense. But maybe...just maybe...your credentials will give will be sufficient to moderate members who view confrontation and name calling as effective ways to present an opinion.