just when you thought you knew what stupid was

[JethroB]

Pasted below is from the CDC website a few moments ago. They make no claim that a mask stops the spread. It is just one of the measures they have identified that will help us protect ourselves and those around us from getting infected and slow the spread. The search for solutions is ongoing.

QUOTE:
COVID-19 can be spread by people who do not have symptoms and do not know that they are infected. That is why it is important for everyone to practice social distancing (staying at least 6 feet away from other people) and wear masks in public settings. Masks provide an extra layer to help prevent the respiratory droplets from traveling in the air and onto other people.

How to Protect Yourself & Others | CDC


I am mostly surprised that this thread has not turned ugly and vicious as others have become,,,,yet.

 

[ovrszd]

I am an optimist. I believe this thread will survive.

 

[two_bit_score]

The reason I don't post who I am is two fold. (1) I appreciate anonymity. (2) I don't believe that doing so is going to change anyone's mind, so it's a futile exercise with no benefit.

Ask yourself honestly, if I provided proof of my background, would it change your viewpoint on wearing face masks? I think the answer is pretty clear, so I don't bother.

The irony of it all is there is nothing I have said on here that is "proprietary" to me. I am simply repeating, and pointing to, a large wealth of well established research by other scientists in the field, for whom, their credentials are easily vetted. Yet, that hasn't convinced you of anything, so how would me posting my credentials change anything?

I think you are more likely to continue performing mental gymnastics to try to justify your Ill-informed stance on face coverings than admit you are wrong. So, no, I won't play along.

No, I actually might change my mind about your arguments for masks if I knew your bonafides. Or, I may not. But, that, we will never know.


As far as my position on masks I am for individual choice but I believe it’s a good idea to wear a mask in a lot of circumstances. It’s not necessary in many though.

Even after the pandemic passes I‘ll probably keep a few in the truck or one in my pocket. What I’d really like to have is a pocket size mask that would nullify the odor of cologne/perfume, BO, farts, bad breath, hairspray, food, pets, etc, etc all found in crowds or Urban areas.

Regardless if you provide your professional credentials for verification or not I do think you are sincere in your belief that masks are the best way to fight CV.

I am curious about your position on HCQ + zinc, etc regimen for treatment of CV.

 

[RSR]

Regardless if you provide your professional credentials for verification or not I do think you are sincere in your belief that masks are the best way to fight CV.

I am curious about your position on HCQ + zinc, etc regimen for treatment of CV.

Actually, I don't know that masks are "the best way" to fight it. I am unapologetic in that masks are a tool in an arsenal, and are effective.

Are they the only thing we should rely upon? Heavens no. Proper hand washing and maintaining distance is every bit as much, and maybe more, important. There are other things we could be doing now, and likely more we will find in the future.

However, I have been advocating for mask use on here because the conversation started with the debate over it. I haven't meant for that to come across as only supportive of masks, while in complete denial of other approaches.

Interestingly, most pandemic responses rank the effectiveness of approaches, and personal protection measures rank as the least effective, because of compliance issues. "Engineering issues" rank much higher.

For example, aerosol concentrations are bad, as they increase infection risk. This is why you wear a mask indoors, but being outside at a reasonable distance is not a huge concern.

But, what if you had sufficiently high air exchange rates indoors, continuously recirculating outside air in? The concentration levels drop significantly, and so does the risk.

At my University there are researchers working on this exact issue. That is, how aerosols move throughout a room, and how long it takes an uninhabited room to clear all particles (how long do you wait between classes). This is an example of another highly effective approach, that sadly, is rarely discussed.

So, yes, masks are important, but they should be seen as one tool in a more holistic approach. Still, there is no excuse for not wearing one, as they are proven to reduce infection risk. They do not, however offer 100% protection, and I don't believe I have ever said they do.

 

[k0ua]

I have noticed when I wear my cloth mask in Wal Mart (about the only place I congregate among groups of people) and the usual suspects who wear excessive amounts of perfume it seems to me that when I walk into the "cloud" that even after leaving their presence, the aroma lingers in the mask. It seems that some of the aerosol particles get stuck in the fibers of the mask and I get to smell them for an extra long time.

 

[two_bit_score]

I have noticed when I wear my cloth mask in Wal Mart (about the only place I congregate among groups of people) and the usual suspects who wear excessive amounts of perfume it seems to me that when I walk into the "cloud" that even after leaving their presence, the aroma lingers in the mask. It seems that some of the aerosol particles get stuck in the fibers of the mask and I get to smell them for an extra long time.

There has got to be a way to fix this! It’s serious I tell you. Something needs to be invented that would be in the mask and would neutralize all odor. Providing a fresh odor free environment around the nose and mouth.

 

[ovrszd]

I have noticed when I wear my cloth mask in Wal Mart (about the only place I congregate among groups of people) and the usual suspects who wear excessive amounts of perfume it seems to me that when I walk into the "cloud" that even after leaving their presence, the aroma lingers in the mask. It seems that some of the aerosol particles get stuck in the fibers of the mask and I get to smell them for an extra long time.

Uh oh......

 

[two_bit_score]

Actually, I don't know that masks are "the best way" to fight it. I am unapologetic in that masks are a tool in an arsenal, and are effective.

Are they the only thing we should rely upon? Heavens no. Proper hand washing and maintaining distance is every bit as much, and maybe more, important. There are other things we could be doing now, and likely more we will find in the future.

However, I have been advocating for mask use on here because the conversation started with the debate over it. I haven't meant for that to come across as only supportive of masks, while in complete denial of other approaches.

Interestingly, most pandemic responses rank the effectiveness of approaches, and personal protection measures rank as the least effective, because of compliance issues. "Engineering issues" rank much higher.

For example, aerosol concentrations are bad, as they increase infection risk. This is why you wear a mask indoors, but being outside at a reasonable distance is not a huge concern.

But, what if you had sufficiently high air exchange rates indoors, continuously recirculating outside air in? The concentration levels drop significantly, and so does the risk.

At my University there are researchers working on this exact issue. That is, how aerosols move throughout a room, and how long it takes an uninhabited room to clear all particles (how long do you wait between classes). This is an example of another highly effective approach, that sadly, is rarely discussed.

So, yes, masks are important, but they should be seen as one tool in a more holistic approach. Still, there is no excuse for not wearing one, as they are proven to reduce infection risk. They do not, however offer 100% protection, and I don't believe I have ever said they do.

We really aren’t that far apart. I just think mask use would increase with better education and suggestion instead of mandates.

Now, what about that HCQ +zinc, etc?

 

[RSR]

We really aren’t that far apart. I just think mask use would increase with better education and suggestion instead of mandates.

Now, what about that HCQ +zinc, etc?

I meant to respond to that and got distracted. The short answer is, I don't know.

The initial work was flawed in method, but promising. I advocated for continued research on the premise that when performing research, you shouldn't immediately cast things away, but explore all options.

A more comprehensive study was performed, and ended early do to no foreseen benefit, and increased heart risks. That's problematic.

However, there is also a large amount of anecdotal evidence from personal medical professionals treating patients with seeming success. Anecdotal evidence should not be ignored either.

In fact, it was anecdotal evidence from the choir in Washington that indicated airborne spread may be a much larger problem than initially thought, and changed helped to change that viewpoint. So, I think those observations should carry some weight too.

What, I'm saying is, I don't know. At the same time, I have not stayed abreast of the literature and that is not my field of study, so even if I had, my opinion isn't worth much.

Asking a fluid dynamicist about infectious disease treatments is like asking the bricklayer for advice on mask effectiveness. Not a good idea.

 

[CalG]

So should we ask B.Gates? or not?