Heating my pole barn (ND Edition)

[grsthegreat]

your lucky that they forgot to install a insulated vapor barrier under the metal roof......here they call it a condensation barrier. i wish they did not install one on my shop. thats the reason no insulation foam company will blow insulate my ceiling panels. the foam wont adhear properly on the metal, and can fall off. i had 3 bids, and 3 "cant do it". I LOVE blow on insulation. Best way to get building vapor tight.

when i built my shop i could not afford to insulate it. i regret not getting a loan to do it back in 1996. now i have the miserable task of pulling everything out , framing walls , adding fiberglass insulation and sheathing walls. I did eveything backwards. Now I have to move air lines, extend electrical boxes, you name it.

It probably would have been better to tear down my 30x40 shop and start over with a larger shop, foamed walls and lids, steel covered ceiling (love them), and heated concrete floor with boiler, and TALLER walls so i could have a auto floor jack installed. But like the wife would let that fly.

Im in north Idaho and I use a ceiling mounted propane heater. works great, easy to warm up shop as needed. if i was needing to use shop every day i would install a pellet stove, but im not interested in whittling away my life in the shop. too lazy to be that lazy.

 

[LouNY]

An interesting site here;
Insulation For Sale | Prodex Total Insulation | Insulation For Less | Buy Insulation | Insulation pricing

Have you considered a partition to create a smaller workshop in one end or corner,
maybe using rolling doors to be able to access the other area at different times.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

I would hope they put down a vapor barrier under that gravel floor when the barn was built. If that is unknown, maybe you can gently dig in a corner to see if you find one. That would be the #1 thing to remedy if it's not already in place.

If you have access to cheap firewood, seems like that is a no-brainer for on-demand heat. Add a few ceiling fans or a blower and it will help spread the heat around. But offhand, it seems challenging to heat a 40x70 barn with wood for short periods of time. I suspect it will just begin feeling warm when you have to close up for the day and head out. A heat pump system would work in milder months, but when it gets really cold, forget about it. Geo would be great but I suspect the cost will be insane for just a barn.

Do they still have oil heat out there? In CT, my dad had a large steel building (about 120x120 with 20' walls) and it was heated with oil. There were oil-fired hot air units mounted up in the corners of the building. He just used them to keep the temps tolerable in the winter months, probably 60F. I imagine you could do the same thing with propane too -- just need to have a tank installed and line up delivery.

I don't think there's any barrier under the gravel. Placing anything directly on the gravel surface, then lifting it up later, and there's a damp spot in the shape of the object. I try to put everything up on pallets or similar for now. Still need to clap together some shelving in there to get more stuff off the ground. Made the mistake of laying a shop vice on the gravel and forgetting about it, came back and the handle end that buried into the gravel was heavily surface rusted. I do think I'm going to have to dig it all out and do something about that. Maybe this summer.

Your right about the short heat cycle issues with such a large air space to heat. I think propane would be fastest way to heat it up. I may go that way eventually, like say after the floor gets concreted (ok, dreaming here). My work (day job) has a shop space that's pretty close in size, insulated, (concrete floors) and with combo of ceiling mounted gas fired furnaces, plus overhead radiant gas heat, does a surprisingly good job warming the area up, and recovering heat when the big doors have been open for truck traffic.

One of the houses we looked at had a geothermal that was dead. Failed the home inspection (homeowner/seller-"Oh, we didn't know it wasn't working"- yeah, right lady). Anyway, the quote for a new one was over $15K to replace the head end side, and the seller wasn't interested in paying for it, or lowering the sale price. So yeah, that's one we wrote off. Can't imagine what it would cost to dig in a new one. I think Mrs. Slim would let me get concrete before she let that happen. Lol.

I don't think oil heat is still a service out here. I've seen guys using oil fired burners, but they're all on their own as far as getting oil supplied. I think the few I've seen all scrounge their own sources of used or "waste" oil.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

That building is a giant space to heat and all the heat is going to go up to the ceiling (ceiling fans?). Unless you are ready to insulate that big box, I would get a torpedo heater and crack the doors open. Heat the space only when you need it. If you want a better radiant type heater that has almost no odors and burns diesel, go with a Sunfire heater. You will heaters like that on the sidelines of football games too. If you plan to be out in the shop all the time, get ready to $pend some ca$h.

SunFire | Industrial Grade Radiant Heaters

Do you have access to lots of waste oil? Heat with that....

Lanair Waste Oil Heaters

Yeah, I don't plan on trying to heat it at all until I get it insulated. It's going to be tough enough to heat WITH insulation.

 

[EddieWalker]

That's a lot of building to keep warm. What type of projects do you want to do in there? I think it would make more sense to decide on how much space you actually need and then focus on just that area. Build some walls and deal with making that work area nice and warm.

Foam is a great thing, but there are two types and the difference between them is significant. Closed cell is the best. It gives you R6 per inch and it stops all air flow. It's also a lot harder to work with and the components are more expensive. Open cell gives you about the same R value per inch as blown in insulation. It's a lot cheaper then closed cell and easier to install. Open cell holds moisture and when sprayed up against things like metal, it allows condensation to form inside of the foam. This leads to mold, and eventually failure of the foam and metal. The metal will rust on the underside, where the foam is touching it. Here, open cell foam voids the warrantee from the metal supplier. In my opinion, open cell foam is junk and it should never be used on a house for any reason.

You can install fiberglass rolls on the walls. This is going to take some framing to create a way to attach it. You can get the rolls 22.5 inches wide, so you will need a stud every 24 inches on center. R19 is pretty standard for walls.

If you spray closed cell on the walls, you will not have to do any framing to hold it in place. 3 inches of closed cell will give you the same R value, but it will also give you better wind protection from what might get through the metal siding.

With your trusses giving you such a nice flat ceiling area, I would consider installing metal siding for a ceiling and then blowing in 2 feet of Attic Cat insulation. It's super easy to do yourself, and 2 feet will give you R60, which is considered the point where you wont gain anything if you make the insulation any thicker.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

An interesting site here;
Insulation For Sale | Prodex Total Insulation | Insulation For Less | Buy Insulation | Insulation pricing

Have you considered a partition to create a smaller workshop in one end or corner,
maybe using rolling doors to be able to access the other area at different times.

Thanks for the website Lou, I bookmarked that to go back and read later when I have time to study it.

It's still kind of a blank canvas inside, but one thing I learned during our "big snows" this October (ok, our only snows), was that the sliding barn door on the side wall will not open once the upper rail track fills with ice and snow. Right now that rail is exposed under the edge of the roof. I will look at doing something for that this summer too. But my original plan to keep my flatbed trailer backed in there sitting on "standby" to haul the tractor out for off site snow removal jobs had to be changed. For now, it's backed in the main roll up door and pushed back behind where the tractor is parked so I can at least get it out of the building this winter if I need to.

 

[Slowpoke Slim]

That's a lot of building to keep warm. What type of projects do you want to do in there? I think it would make more sense to decide on how much space you actually need and then focus on just that area. Build some walls and deal with making that work area nice and warm.

Foam is a great thing, but there are two types and the difference between them is significant. Closed cell is the best. It gives you R6 per inch and it stops all air flow. It's also a lot harder to work with and the components are more expensive. Open cell gives you about the same R value per inch as blown in insulation. It's a lot cheaper then closed cell and easier to install. Open cell holds moisture and when sprayed up against things like metal, it allows condensation to form inside of the foam. This leads to mold, and eventually failure of the foam and metal. The metal will rust on the underside, where the foam is touching it. Here, open cell foam voids the warrantee from the metal supplier. In my opinion, open cell foam is junk and it should never be used on a house for any reason.

You can install fiberglass rolls on the walls. This is going to take some framing to create a way to attach it. You can get the rolls 22.5 inches wide, so you will need a stud every 24 inches on center. R19 is pretty standard for walls.

If you spray closed cell on the walls, you will not have to do any framing to hold it in place. 3 inches of closed cell will give you the same R value, but it will also give you better wind protection from what might get through the metal siding.

With your trusses giving you such a nice flat ceiling area, I would consider installing metal siding for a ceiling and then blowing in 2 feet of Attic Cat insulation. It's super easy to do yourself, and 2 feet will give you R60, which is considered the point where you wont gain anything if you make the insulation any thicker.

Thank you, Eddie. I didn't know there was a difference in foam.

I think I'd at least like to use it for more than a cold storage building. Eventually, with a proper floor in it, I'd like to move most of my "shop" stuff out there. Then be able to work on my own auto repairs, woodworking (I dabble, not professional) projects, be able to use floor jacks/jack stands, set up my table saw, shop press, drill press, grinder, maybe move my 220 compressor out there. Use the attached garage for parking car + truck (I've heard people do this? Lol, I don't know what my truck would do if it could be parked indoors, probably quite running from the shock of it all), and use the shop building for everything else.

I know it won't all happen at once. But if I'm changing/upgrading things, I'd like to do so with the "long term" view of having it rigged up to run a shop out of when it's done? Not sure that I was any help there to you.

 

[fried1765]

An interesting site here;
Insulation For Sale | Prodex Total Insulation | Insulation For Less | Buy Insulation | Insulation pricing

Have you considered a partition to create a smaller workshop in one end or corner,
maybe using rolling doors to be able to access the other area at different times.

EXACTLY!
Concrete 1/2 the floor.
Build a divider wall!
Make 1/2 ceiling of steel siding material.
Blow insulation on top.
Insulate sidewalls - 1/2 of bldg.
Add insulated ovhd. door to other end.
Use propane unit heater....easy on/off, no mess!

 

[EddieWalker]

Thank you, Eddie. I didn't know there was a difference in foam.

I think I'd at least like to use it for more than a cold storage building. Eventually, with a proper floor in it, I'd like to move most of my "shop" stuff out there. Then be able to work on my own auto repairs, woodworking (I dabble, not professional) projects, be able to use floor jacks/jack stands, set up my table saw, shop press, drill press, grinder, maybe move my 220 compressor out there. Use the attached garage for parking car + truck (I've heard people do this? Lol, I don't know what my truck would do if it could be parked indoors, probably quite running from the shock of it all), and use the shop building for everything else.

I know it won't all happen at once. But if I'm changing/upgrading things, I'd like to do so with the "long term" view of having it rigged up to run a shop out of when it's done? Not sure that I was any help there to you.

That's kind of what I was thinking. I would get some graph paper and figure out how much area you need for the shop, and how much you need for storing vehicles and stuff. The shop area could get concrete for a nice floor to work off of. Maybe even run PEX through the concrete so you can warm the floor.

 

[ruffdog]

Yeah, I don't plan on trying to heat it at all until I get it insulated. It's going to be tough enough to heat WITH insulation.

When I heated my insulated 2-car garage to work on a Jeep, I really went through the propane. That was only heating to 60F with a 30,000btu modine type heater.