New Owner of a Kioti LB2204

[RandR10]

Hey everybody. I just became the proud new owner of an LB2204. Tractor seems to be in overall serviceable condition. It goes through all the gears, hi and lo ranges, 3-point lift works, PTO works at both speeds, and there's a pin missing in the 4wd linkage, but everything looks good there. Hydraulics are a little tired, but for now they'll do what I need. The engine is on its last leg though. Massive blowby with smoke visible out the vent tube and sounds like it may be down a cylinder. I'm fairly new to diesel engines (my first was a 7.3 IDI 2 years ago that I have since sold), so they all sound like they're going to throw a rod to me, but this one seems to have an especially loud clack to it, so I'm a little worried the crank might be toast from a spun rod bearing/knock. Could be top end noise I'm not sure. I found the following thread, but it's been dead so long, wanted to start a new thread about this.

First Post: Engine Swap Kioti LB2204

This is my first post although I joined this site over a year ago. I thought this might help someone else in the same situation. Last winter my Kioti LB2204 threw a rod and after splitting the tractor I found a hole in the block behind the starter. The Kioti dealer could no longer order a...

www.tractorbynet.com

So from what I can gather this tractor was nearly identical or identical to the Kubota L-series tractors from this era since Kioti made the Kubota gearboxes and sheetmetal at the time. Based on that thread, I'm gathering that the Dae Dong and Kubota engines are so close that even the oil pan will interchange? The D1402 he swapped in is a bigger displacement engine than the DH1101-b that's supposedly in there now, but the fact that they're so close gives me a little hope for my predicament.

Even more confusing about all of this is that the DH1101-b is the same exact part number as a Kubota engine from the same era. I even found a thread on another forum about a Kubota engine of the same model number that even had the same 1115cc cast into the side like mine (see pic). Was Dae Dong rebadging the Kubota engine or did they just manufacture the same engine in house using the Kubota design? It seems like they're pretty darn close to identical, maybe even the same castings.

Regardless, I obviously need to either rebuild this engine or repower it with something else and I'm considering my options. What kind of life expectancy could I expect out of the Dae Dong engine if I rebuilt it and would it be worth it? Since these all seem to have SAE flywheel and bellhousing sizes and patterns respectively, would any old 3-cylinder diesel with those same specs bolt in or am I going to be running into issues with oil pan clearance and what not? I don't really care about which brand, I just need something that works and will last a couple thousand hours with routine maintenance, as I'll probably be dead by the time this machine sees that many hours. The Kubota stuff seems to be really expensive even in heavily used condition, and Dae Dong engines are all but non-existent out there on CL and Marketplace, so the chances of me finding that unicorn $500 deal that the other OP got seems to be pretty slim unless I can go with a more modern Kubota engine or some other brand of diesel. Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[RandR10]

For example, I keep finding the Kubota D905 engine for more reasonable prices than most, and it would be a good match for this machine power wise, but I don't know if I'll run into any problems with the swap.

 

[RandR10]

I'm also finding rebuild kits for the Kubota version of the DH1101 all over the place for pretty cheap, so if the castings are the same and those kits would work, I think I may just go that route. Again, anyone with info on the interchangeability of these engines, please chime in.

 

[zenmek]

An FYI for ya..I successfully used kubota rings in my lk3054 with no problems at all, and they were a lot cheaper! Good luck

 

[RandR10]

An FYI for ya..I successfully used kubota rings in my lk3054 with no problems at all, and they were a lot cheaper! Good luck

Yeah it seems like the Dae Dong TD1400 in your tractor would be equivalent to the D1403 from Kubota? It's been very difficult to find public info on any of these engines.

 

[RandR10]

So I've done quite a bit more digging, and so I'll give my findings even though none are conclusive.

First off, I analyzed a bunch of pictures of the L245 Kubota tractor that has the DH1101 in it, and I can not find any visual differences between my engine and drivetrain vs. that tractor, so even though the sheet metal and name of this tractor are closer to the L2202DT Kubota, I think I basically have an L245 with a different hood on it, with either a Dae Dong built version of the same engine or a rebadged Kubota engine. As far as the engine internals swapping, that remains to be seen, but zenmek's post above gives me hope.

I pulled the valve cover off today to check valve adjustment. As I suspected, none were too tight, so the lack of compression on the bad cylinders is likely due to worn rings. Considering the amount of blow by I figured that was certainly the case on at least 1 cylinder. I was cranking the engine over by hand, and cylinder 1 actually made enough compression to slip the belt as the piston was coming up. Cylinder 2 I couldn't feel much, but I could hear hissing on the compression stroke. Cylinder 3 I felt a little resistance but not as much as cylinder 1. Looks like cylinder 2 is pretty much toast.

I did adjust the valves as per SOP before doing a compression check, but I don't know if I should even bother. This thing needs a rebuild for sure.

 

[LEChambers]

Thank you for all the information and research. I have an 87 LB2204. It has pretty much done the whole blow by and noisy rattle since I purchased it 20 years ago. It just keeps going. I needed a steering shaft and bearings which the local Kioti dealer couldn't come close to finding. In desperation, I tried one from a Kubota L245 which fit perfectly. I have been told that Kioti and Kubota had some sort of partnership back then. The DH 1101 engine specs match perfectly. Even the bore and stroke are a match. Looking forward to hearing what you come up with.

 

[RandR10]

Started tearing down the tractor today to pull the engine out. I think I found the reason for the engine issues. The inside of the air filter is almost as dirty as the outside in spots. I wiped my finger on the inside of the intake tube and it's completely coated with a fine dust, so it's been sucking in dirty air for a good long while. It looks like the air filter that was in there may be original to the tractor. Why do people neglect simple routine maintenance? My last tractor was a Massey 204 with an oil bath filter and it was so dirty I had to run solvent through it to get all the sludge out of the mesh. Those are so easy to service normally. Just dump out the old oil from the dish, clean the gunk out, fill with fresh oil, then put it back on. I'm actually encouraged by this air filter find though because it may mean I've only got a worn ring issue and the rest of the bottom end may be in good shape. Fingers crossed.

LEChambers, the blow by is so bad on this engine that it pukes oil out the breather tube. I assume it's fuel coming from that dead cylinder causing the oil level to rise, and with the blowby being so bad it just blows the excess out that tube. It's always losing oil out that tube but it always shows a little high on the dipstick no matter how much it pukes out. Thanks for the info on your steering. I'm further encouraged that I'll hopefully be able to use a Kubota DH1101 kit on my engine for a rebuild. Once I get it torn down and inspect the block and crank, if everything checks out I'll probably pull the trigger on a rebuild kit then get it over to a machine shop to have the sleeves installed and have any crank work done that it needs. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to go through the head too considering how much dust those valves have seen.

 

[RandR10]

So I got quite a bit further on this over the last few days and other than the fact that I had to do all this work, I'm feeling really good about this engine now. I may even be able to get away with just a cylinder hone and some new rings. Got started tearing the engine down and it's got the head and oil pan off now. I took a look at the condition of the cylinder walls themselves and the connecting rod big ends.

For the cylinder walls, even though the crosshatch is gone on all the cylinders, I can't see any visible vertical scoring. There's a decent ridge at the tops of each cylinder (much of which may be carbon), but they seem like they're in great shape considering all the blow by this engine had. As far as the big end of the rod goes, no signs of heat and no play in the rods on their crank journals.

Also, I mentioned earlier that cylinder #2 was making a wheezing noise as it came up to TDC on the compression stroke. I thought that was either rings or valves. Turns out it was just the injector. Like a lot of stuff on this machine, the injector on that cylinder wasn't tightened down properly and air was actually leaking past. I discovered this when I took the injector lines off. I dribbled some oil in there to check if the looseness was causing the noise, and sure enough, bubbles when I cranked it over.

In keeping with the theme of deferred maintenance, the oil pan is filled with gobs of sludge and the pickup tube screen has some gunk in it. Looks like no one changed the oil for a few hundred hours. I'm not so sure on my air filter assessment from earlier now. That #3 cylinder was so bad that the intake and exhaust ports (especially the exhaust) were caked with carbon build up. That may be the substance I found in the intake tube. The lack of oil changes may be what took out the rings. Who knows, maybe a combination of the two.

Tomorrow I'll be pulling out the rods and checking the cylinders for roundness and taper. I'm also going to inspect the pistons themselves, although I'm thinking they'll look good considering the condition of the cylinder walls.

Last but not least, I've been watching a lot of teardown videos of Kubota engines since there are none of the DaeDong engines. If this isn't in fact built by Kubota, it's a very very close copy. It's the exact same design Kubota uses. It doesn't just look the same outside. The internals look the same as well. As soon as I get done with my inspection and figure out what I need to buy, I'm going to source parts for the Kubota DH1101.

I'll attach a few pictures for your viewing pleasure.

 

[RandR10]

Well I guess this settles the debate on whether I'll need new pistons. I'm absolutely blown away by how little damage there is to that cylinder wall considering the condition of this piston. The piston itself has a big chunk out of it, both compression rings were in pieces and that big chunk of aluminum was nowhere to be found, so it must have just been ground to pieces by the tumbling chunks of ring. Some of the little tiny pieces of piston ring were embedded in what's left of the ring lands. I don't know what collapsed these ring lands but my favorite theory is that someone overdid it with ether and hydrolocked it. The pistons come up so high on these engines that if the gasket wasn't in there it would hit the head. I got a better look at the cylinder walls and they all have very light scoring on them, but nothing crazy. They're also just out of spec at the top end of the cylinder and they are slightly oval shaped. The stock sized piston spec is 1.9921" and the measurements were anywhere from 1.9927" all the way up to 1.9973" (measured with a Mitutoyo micrometer and a Lufkin snap gauge). The spec on an oversize piston for this is 0.5 mm which works out to 3.0118" so the machine shop can take quite a bit of material out to clean up the existing damage. Hopefully that gives him enough room to clean it up.

The rod journals on the crank look really good and the bearings themselves have the merest whiff of scoring where the oil feed hole is, so I'll likely be able to go with stock size bearings. At this point everything's out of the engine but the crank, which I'll probably do tomorrow. On these you have to take it off the stand because the crank comes out the back of the engine. Overall I'm pretty happy with what I have to work with. Next thing I need to do is find a local machine shop. Anyone know of a good automotive machine shop in the Raleigh area?

 

[RandR10]

Found more information on the Kubota/Kioti similarities on this particular engine number. I'm cross-referencing the specs between the L245 service manual and the LB2204 service manual. I've found that every single measurement is exactly the same for the crank mains, crank rod pins, wrist pin, bore diamenter and even the oversize/undersize dimensions and maximum allowable clearances. I looked at the cam specs, and they're the same too. At this point I'm 99.9% confident in these being the same engine. I'm still not sure whose factory it was made in, but I can't find any measurement in either manual that would prevent these parts from interchanging. This is good news for both Kioti and Kubota owners because it expands the pool of possible donor machines for each respective brand should a catastrophic engine failure happen. I've seen a lot of posts from people looking for the Kubota version of this engine to replace theirs and eventually just giving up because they're so uncommon. I've also contacted the local Kioti dealer twice looking for parts to overhaul this engine and they just haven't gotten back to me, so it's good that I can source parts elsewhere.

 

[LEChambers]

Thank you for all of the detailed information and photos! Also the detailed information on the interchangeable parts from Kubota. No luck from my local Kioti dealer here either. Good luck with your rebuild. I look forward to seeing how it all comes together.

 

[MIKEH2204]

Hi folks, I just stumble across RandR's project and I'm highly interested in what the out come is, as far as Kubota/Kioti engines and parts. I get the feeling this maybe a Chevy vs GMC scenario that both Kioti and Kubota employees are adhering to. I actual walked into a Chevy garage one time and the guy told me the the truck part I was looking for would not fit my GMC (of course it did). I'm getting that same feeling here between KIOTI/KUBOTA at least in the older models. I have a 1987 Kioti LB2204, seems to run just fine (knock on wood when dealing with custom or antique)

 

[RandR10]

I have an update for everyone on this. I attempted to bore the original sleeve on that broken piston's cylinder and the scoring was too bad for it to clean up with a 0.020" (0.5 mm) over bore. There's no 0.030 or 0.040 over pistons available for these, so I bought a rebuild kit with new sleeves and standard size pistons and rings for a Kubota DH1101 (also compatible with D1100, D1101 and D1102 Kubota engines). Upon assembly with this kit, the only part I've encountered so far that hasn't worked is the valve seals. I ended up using valve seals from an early '90s Ford Taurus 3.0 V6 (the Vulcan pushrod engine, not the DOHC Duratec) which fit perfectly. Right now I've got the bottom end assembled, the head is on, cam is installed, crank and idler gear are on, and I'm just about to install the injection pump cam and gear. I'll probably wait to give another update until I get the tractor running.

So to review, the cylinder liners, pistons, rings, wrist pins, wrist pin bushings, rod bearings, main bearings, and so far all of the gaskets specific to the Kubota DH1101 also fit the Kioti DH1101. The pistons look like they were cast from the same mold. They are absolutely identical to the originals. As I said above, this is great news for both these early Kioti tractor and Kubota L245 owners because it gives a cross reference that allows a broader pool of cores to be used for things like engine blocks and cranks, and guys needing to re-sleeve and overhaul LB2204 engines can just get the Kubota parts. Those L245 engines are unicorns and very expensive to get cranks and blocks for. You can probably buy a whole LB2202/04 in good running condition for less than a complete running Kubota DH1101 engine by itself. The market for Kubota parts reminds me of old Mopar stuff. I hope this helps some people get their tractors running again.

 

[RandR10]

Another update. I finished engine assembly and put the tractor together just enough to drive it around. Didn't want to put the finishing touches on it in case it had to be taken back apart again. It starts a little hard in the cold weather with the 6+ month old fuel in it, but once it warms up a bit it runs great. It's not making oil now so looks like the unburned fuel on the dead cylinder theory was the correct one. My biggest problem right now is getting it up to full operating temp because it's cold enough outside that the water temp only gets up to about 140 by my hand held laser thermometer. Oil temp was barely above 90*F. This is after about 20 minutes of running up and down the hill in my back yard in high gear. I think I'll have to block off the radiator to properly break this thing in.

Next on the list of repairs needed are:
1. Power steering - I think this may be working somewhat, but it's really weak. I've done some research and it may just need some more flow from the proportioning valve.
2. Front axle - When I hard turn I get a sound from the front left wheel that sounds almost like a tire rubbing. I'm assuming it's a bad bearing somewhere in the gear train.
3. 3-point positioning lever will not stay up. Previous owner said this was a problem with something internal to the housing. It should be something simple because the lift otherwise works fine. Probably a spring loaded friction surface of some kind I'm thinking.
4. Loader bucket - The bucked has an added piece of steel in the back to give it a radius rather than a squared off shape. I'm assuming to help release soil that's in it. That piece rusted so I'll be needing to weld in a patch.
5. Lights - No lights on this thing. Fired it up for the first time last night after dark and I was driving it around using my cell phone camera light to light the way lol. It would probably be helpful to have some lights on this thing.

After those are done this thing should be mechanically 100%. Previous owner went through most of the hydraulic hoses so those are mostly new. I'm pretty excited to have the engine running well for now though. First time ever rebuilding a diesel engine, first time rebuilding a head, first time doing dry sleeves and first time boring and honing a set of cylinders myself. I would have had a machine shop do a lot of that work but the local shops wanted disgusting amounts of money and they were backed up for months. Took me a bit longer but it saved me lots of money and it was a great learning experience. Now I won't be afraid to tackle that kind of work in the future and I'll know whether it's worth messing with too.

 

[RandR10]

Ran it for over an hour today. Blocked off the radiator and put a new radiator cap on. Old one didn't have a functioning gasket. Drove it around for an hour or so. Found a couple leaks once it built some pressue at some hose clamps and I tightened those. Oil pan temp was about 165 when I parked it, so I think that should be enough heat to seat the rings and give everything a good heat cycle before I go in and re-torque the head bolts and re-set the valves. I'm kind of surprised with how cool this engine runs. Found a new problem too. Oil puking out the top of the transmission after I run it for a while. I'll have to add it to the list of things to address.

Also, does anyone know where I could find a new dash kit for this thing? The fuel and temp gauges work but the tachometer and hour meter are toast. Would be nice to have that working again so I don't over-rev it.

 

[K5lwq]

I think they used the same dash as my LK2554. It is not available anymore. I did a retrofit to an old Ford 3000 dash.

With both the tach and hour meter not working have you checked the cable? Those are available.

 

[RandR10]

Yup. Cable is fine. The actual needle for the tach is detached and floating around inside the dash so it's definitely something inside.

 

[K5lwq]

Yes every needle broke on all my gauges. That is when I did the mod to the Ford instrument panel.

 

[Boss 302]

Nice work and excellent details, you should be able to enjoy many hours of seat time.