Yesterday. Would you buy and EV?

[wawajake]

I also suggest that the mathematical comparisons should take into account the gas taxes us ICE drivers pay that is used ( at least in Canada) for the road maintenance all drivers get to use. So since we are talking about the future. As ICE drivers are forced off the highways over the next ten years, Governments will have no choice but transfer those taxes to Electricity use at homes and any future fast chargerstations on highways. So don't assume electricity rates won't have to be taxed dramatically and included in the math ! And unfortunately all the other users of electricity ( homeowners, commercial etc) will also be paying these tax increases for any all encompassing battery car future ...Perhaps hydrogen is a much better future for cars after all, if the bigger picture impacts are taken into account.

 

[ovrszd]

I also suggest that the mathematical comparisons should take into account the gas taxes us ICE drivers pay that is used ( at least in Canada) for the road maintenance all drivers get to use. So since we are talking about the future. As ICE drivers are forced off the highways over the next ten years, Governments will have no choice but transfer those taxes to Electricity use at homes and any future fast chargerstations on highways. So don't assume electricity rates won't have to be taxed dramatically and included in the math ! And unfortunately all the other users of electricity ( homeowners, commercial etc) will also be paying these tax increases for any all encompassing battery car future ...Perhaps hydrogen is a much better future for cars after all, if the bigger picture impacts are taken into account.

Yep. I never complained about road tax on gas. If you don't like it, burn less gas. But as you clearly stated, tax on electricity will have no way to be sorted by what car you drive. So for the first decade, possibly two decades, everyone will be paying so the EV owners can charge their vehicle.

 

[MossRoad]

My guess is in the future they will eventually come up with either a required annual odometer check or a device that reads mileage on ALL cars and charge road taxes based on that.

 

[wawajake]

Strawman argument. Use ICE vehicle to travel long distances.
I don't think our taxes should pay for EV charging infrastructure either. Have states or cities decide if they want to fund these with local taxes.
The global warming science is absolutely false and borders on a cult religion. Gloom and doom climate shamans have been predicting the end of the world since the 70's with bad results.
Personally I bought my EV for convenience of charging at home and to spread my fuel dependencies across three areas, gas, diesel, and electric.

I love how you immediately assume just " USE ICE VEHICLES FOR LONG DISTANCES) forgetting that new ICE vehicles will be banned, .....and your assuming we all should have two vehicles, (one of each) and considering any long distance driving requires confidence in reliable vehicle, our second vehicle ( the ICE one) will have to be reliably new. But keep assuming while my gas taxes pay for the highway your driving on.

 

[ovrszd]

My guess is in the future they will eventually come up with either a required annual odometer check or a device that reads mileage on ALL cars and charge road taxes based on that.

As with almost everything in this country, the method of payback should have been determined before the 1st EV was licensed. But it won't be implemented until society raises hell about their electric rates. By then the power companies will be screaming Bankruptcy and our government will tell us it's our moral responsibility to save our infrastructure and pay higher rates,,,, all of us,,,,, not EV owners!!!! After all they are already doing their part to save the Planet. How dare us common folk complain....

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

Let's do the math...

The cost to fuel an ICE car is about 15 cents per mile. The cost to fuel an EV is about 4 cents.

In ten years, most folks put 200,000 miles on a car, so $30,000 in fuel for the ICE, and $8,000 for the EV. That's $22,000 savings in fuel.

Now add in the maintenance costs for an ICE car... Oil, oil filters, air filters, spark plugs & wires, periodic tune-ups, transmission maintenance, brakes... If you pay about $400/year for parts & labor on those maintenance tasks, over 10 years, you've saved $4,000 more, for a total of $26,000, so it comes out even.

$26K sounds like a pile of money, but since you buy your fuel $60 at a time, that seems small until you add up 10 years worth of those fill-ups plus maintenance.

(BTW, before somebody calls me out on the brake maintenance... My EV is on the original factory pads at just over 50,000 miles, and they've still got 3/8" left on them. I *might* have to replace them at 150,000 miles.)

The inflated price of the care makes the $26 seem like chump change


To get my wife an EV vs her gas vehicle. We would of payed probably $30-40k more in initial purchase price.

I currently drive a 10 year old van for a work car. While I spend $100 a week in gas. It would take 9.6 years to break even on purchasing a new EV to replace it

 

[MossRoad]

Yep. I never complained about road tax on gas. If you don't like it, burn less gas. But as you clearly stated, tax on electricity will have no way to be sorted by what car you drive. So for the first decade, possibly two decades, everyone will be paying so the EV owners can charge their vehicle.

In Indiana, currently, it's:
Indiana: $150 annual fee for EVs; it’s $50 for hybrids and PHEVs.

Indiana has a gasoline tax, a gasoline sales tax, and a federal tax. We pay around 74 cents per gallon in taxes.

200 gallons of gas times 75 cents = $150

Average car in Indiana averages 18,000 miles per year.

IF it got 30mpg, and it doesn't, it would use 600 gallons.

The taxes on 600 gallons of gas in Indiana is $450.

$450 - $150 = $300

So we're losing $300 per year in taxes on average per EV.

I'm guessing EVs drive less, but 2/3 less?

There has to be a more fair way to assess taxes on EVs than just some arbitrary number like $150.

 

[/pine]

Green Hydrogen Made by Splitting Seawater

Researchers have successfully split seawater without pre-treatment to produce green hydrogen.

www.technologynetworks.com

 

[deserteagle71]

The global warming science is absolutely false and borders on a cult religion. Gloom and doom climate shamans have been predicting the end of the world since the 70's with bad results.

Only back in the 70s it was global cooling. I remember the headlines well. Another ice age on the way, just because we'd had a few years with cooler than normal temperatures.

 

[nickfank]

Strawman argument. Use ICE vehicle to travel long distances.

Exactly. Seems odd to me that so many people think we all have to be at one extreme or the other on this topic.

I'm not claiming EVs will save the world. I'm simply willing to try something new and share my experience with others.

Our EVs are commuters & grocery gitters. That's 90% of what we do. We've still got an ICE for long road trips and a couple of ICE tractors to manage our land.

I'm chuckling as I imagine what this board would've looked like in 1910 as the wackos pushing tractors clashed with the horse loyalists.

 

[nickfank]

I also suggest that the mathematical comparisons should take into account the gas taxes us ICE drivers pay that is used

I can't speak to Canada, but in Ohio, I pay $400 each year in extra taxes for each of my EVs. You're right that I should have included that in my expenses. However, they are my expenses, not yours.

If we get into arguing about subsidies and tax breaks, it'll get interesting, since most folks who operate tractors in the US are farmers who are heavily subsidized through our agriculture department and local property tax breaks for farm ground. I'd suggest we stop here before we wander too far off topic.

 

[/pine]

Only back in the 70s it was global cooling. I remember the headlines well. Another ice age on the way, just because we'd had a few years with cooler than normal temperatures.

[TIC]
The hole in the ozone layer was letting all the heat out...now since they've closed up the hole it's getting warmer...
[/TIC]

Only now the whining AGW zealots have upped the ante and want to blame every exceptional bit of weather on the warming...just ask greta thorninherbutt...!

 

[nickfank]

There has to be a more fair way to assess taxes on EVs than just some arbitrary number like $150.

Yes, that's a tough one, because there's no way to put a dye in electricity...

One suggested approach is to monitor the distance traveled by each vehicle via GPS. Completely fair, but a complete invasion of privacy, so I don't like it.

In Ohio, the extra EV registration tax is $400/year, which is imperfect, but at least in the ballpark. (It's fair enough that I pay it without griping.)

 

[nickfank]

To get my wife an EV vs her gas vehicle. We would of payed probably $30-40k more in initial purchase price.

Yeah, I can't afford to buy a new one either. Fortunately, the battery warranties transfer, so buying used is low risk. I paid $14K for our first used EV, and $25K for the second. Before that, $5K was the most I'd ever paid for a car, so it was painful. However, we've already made back the $14K for the first one in savings.

I don't expect or want everyone to go out and buy an EV tomorrow, just sharing with all of you that my experience has been good, and suggesting that it's worth doing the math to see if it works for you.

 

[wawajake]

I can't speak to Canada, but in Ohio, I pay $400 each year in extra taxes for each of my EVs. You're right that I should have included that in my expenses. However, they are my expenses, not yours.

If we get into arguing about subsidies and tax breaks, it'll get interesting, since most folks who operate tractors in the US are farmers who are heavily subsidized through our agriculture department and local property tax breaks for farm ground. I'd suggest we stop here before we wander too far off topic.

Oh.....now I see...... its off topic if the specific subsidies and lack of taxes paid, help your side of the equation.....

 

[nickfank]

Oh.....now I see...... its off topic if the specific subsidies and lack of taxes paid, help your side of the equation.....

But they don't... As I pointed out in the first sentence, I pay a fair share of road taxes. I'm pointing out that if subsidies anger you, a group of primarily agricultural people may not be the best place to go on a rant about it.

 

[nickfank]

Thanks, everyone, for the interesting discussion of the technology and operating costs we've had over the last few days

I see that this thread is heading off towards politics and anger (again), so I'm going to wander off to the barn.

I'll leave you with a thought to consider: When I ask a question about New Holland tractors on TBN, I'm hoping to hear from people who have experience owning & operating them. It's fun when others join in the conversation and ask interesting questions, but without actual experience somewhere in the mix, I might as well be on facebook.

 

[/pine]

They could put transponders in all EVs and the manufacturers can send out something like a 1099 every year to EV etc owners...
Cars like Tesla's are already connected to the Internet so no big deal for them to log miles traveled...

 

[tradosaurus]

I love how you immediately assume just " USE ICE VEHICLES FOR LONG DISTANCES) forgetting that new ICE vehicles will be banned, .....and your assuming we all should have two vehicles, (one of each) and considering any long distance driving requires confidence in reliable vehicle, our second vehicle ( the ICE one) will have to be reliably new. But keep assuming while my gas taxes pay for the highway your driving on.

I didn't assume you should buy an EV. I really don't care.
I have 4 cars, only one is EV so I'm not avoiding the gas tax so you might want to virtue signal to someone else.

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

Yeah, I can't afford to buy a new one either. Fortunately, the battery warranties transfer, so buying used is low risk. I paid $14K for our first used EV, and $25K for the second. Before that, $5K was the most I'd ever paid for a car, so it was painful. However, we've already made back the $14K for the first one in savings.

I don't expect or want everyone to go out and buy an EV tomorrow, just sharing with all of you that my experience has been good, and suggesting that it's worth doing the math to see if it works for you.

I want one but the price of them keeps me away.

Even if gas was $5 a gallon, we would have around a 10 year break even point atleast

My dad worked at a dealer that had a Nissan leaf. It wasnt but 5 or so years old but the battery had a fault. Nissan wouldn't repair it, only replace it. It went to the junkyard because the battery cost was more than the value of the vehicle in good condition.