More residential well questions

[Cub 7275]

After reading many of the well threads there are still many questions.

Cliff notes: well drilled 1971, 100 feet deep, 4" steel casing. New pump in 1991 with 1" galvanized drop pipe. The pump will not produce more than 30 psi anymore, flow is still good. System holds pressure when pump shuts off. Well guy tried to pull the pump, said it was stuck and that he could try until it comes loose or breaks and if it breaks no water for a month or more since they are backlogged for drilling new wells. Decided to leave it for now. Lots of sediment in the water filters for a while after the attempt to pull the pump.

I'm resigned to getting a new well drilled, but am a bit unsure about what to ask for. The current offering here in Michigan seems to be 5" sch 40 pvc casing and 1" sch 80 pvc for the drop pipe and a 2 wire pump.

Our previous home had a 300 foot deep well with a 6" steel casing, 3 wire pump and an aircraft type cable going to the pump for pulling it out.

I'm a little concerned about the pvc drop pipe being used to pull the pump out. I also like the 3 wire pump for a few reasons.


Soo what would the TBN experts recommend?

 

[JJT]

If the current flow is good, why not put a booster pump in at the house?

Same deal here, well drillers are backed up big time. Get on the schedule if you think that's going to be required. As for 4", 5" or 6", you're most likely going to get what the well driller has to offer. Around here it's 6" steel casing, pounded or drilled, no other choices.

My brother had a well drilled a few months ago, $10K flat fee, for drilling up to 300' and setting the pump. My brother was on the hook for everything from the pitless adapter to the inside plumbing. 3 - 4 months lead time.

 

[TractorTech]

The pvc drop pipe is great for pulling and its anti corrosion properties, but we have experienced on a couple of wells that pvc was used, warping of the pipe allowing the pump to rub against the steel casing. In those cases, it ruined the motor.

 

[groundcover]

I would go 6" steel casing, poly pipe with stainless safety line , 3 wire pump.

 

[Jchonline]

If the current flow is good, why not put a booster pump in at the house?

Same deal here, well drillers are backed up big time. Get on the schedule if you think that's going to be required. As for 4", 5" or 6", you're most likely going to get what the well driller has to offer. Around here it's 6" steel casing, pounded or drilled, no other choices.

My brother had a well drilled a few months ago, $10K flat fee, for drilling up to 300' and setting the pump. My brother was on the hook for everything from the pitless adapter to the inside plumbing. 3 - 4 months lead time.

And maybe a cistern in front of that. We have 1100 gal cistern (you can get much smaller) and a booster pump...never any issues.

 

[ponytug]

After reading many of the well threads there are still many questions.

Cliff notes: well drilled 1971, 100 feet deep, 4" steel casing. New pump in 1991 with 1" galvanized drop pipe. The pump will not produce more than 30 psi anymore, flow is still good. System holds pressure when pump shuts off. Well guy tried to pull the pump, said it was stuck and that he could try until it comes loose or breaks and if it breaks no water for a month or more since they are backlogged for drilling new wells. Decided to leave it for now. Lots of sediment in the water filters for a while after the attempt to pull the pump.

I'm resigned to getting a new well drilled, but am a bit unsure about what to ask for. The current offering here in Michigan seems to be 5" sch 40 pvc casing and 1" sch 80 pvc for the drop pipe and a 2 wire pump.

Our previous home had a 300 foot deep well with a 6" steel casing, 3 wire pump and an aircraft type cable going to the pump for pulling it out.

I'm a little concerned about the pvc drop pipe being used to pull the pump out. I also like the 3 wire pump for a few reasons.


Soo what would the TBN experts recommend?

We have, and have had, PVC drop pipe on our wells, with no issues in either, and both were in ground for 40-50 years before being pulled and replaced. One had an anti torque sleeve on (1 1/4"PVC in a 6" PVC pipe). I would not do a steel pipe under any circumstances. I think that is just asking for corrosion issues.

I think that you could ask for either polypropylene safety rope or stainless aircraft cable. It is your well. Both work. I prefer three wire pumps, because the bits that might fail first are all above ground and easy to service.

Two Wire Versus Three Wire Submersible Pumps — Gainesville Pump - No water? No problem.

Most 4″ submersible well pumps used in residential applications come in 2 different configurations, 2-wire or 3-wire. With the 3-wire pump, the motor starting components such as, starting capacitors, running capacitors, relays, and thermal over loads, are contai

www.gainesvillepump.com

Pulling a pump with PVC is not usually an issue. If you have had a casing failure, or a slump, or material dropped into the well, or corrosion, all bets are off. Well drillers have lots of specialized tools for catching and snagging broken wire or cable or pipe to get a bore clear, but that is generally dependent upon having a drill rig free to do the fiddling and uphauling.

Having a 100' boroscope go down the casing to have a look see would let you and the drillers know what you are up against.

To your original issue; by the sound of it your footer valve (check valve at the pump) is ok, so the pressure has stayed up, but the impellers on your pump are worn, (and therefore need replacing), and as a result of being worn aren't producing the pressure that you want.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ericm979]

We had one pump go out when the splines between the motor and pump wore out. The motor was turning it just wasn't driving the pump.

Another time we had a steel well pipe rust through so water would just fall back into the well and not get to the tank. That burned the motor out.

We have all PVC pipe now, and a pumpsaver on the motor to cut power if it detects a problem like under or over current. Last month the pumpsaver burned out. Its still worth having. You can buy an "Informer" which will read data off the pump saver so you can see if its had any errors.

BTW we noticed that the old steel pipes were 21' and the new PVC are 20'. So with the same number of sticks the well winds up being closer to the surface. This may or may not matter depending on the well and how much water you use.

 

[etpm]

I did some looking online a couple years ago when my pump failed. The failure was mechanical, all the nuts that held the motor to the pump had vibrated off. A Grundfos pump. My original pump was a 3 wire and I had it replaced with a 3 wire. Many posts talked about how 2 wire pumps were more reliable, but 2 wire pumps, when the starting circuit fails, require pulling the pump and replacing it. The guy that replaced my pump suggested I stick with the 3 wire, especially since I have the ability to easily replace the above ground parts if they fail. The most likely part to fail is the starting capacitor. I have a brand new one that I vacuum packed in the box with the pump control. I also have a new contactor, also vacuum packed, in the pump control box. I did this because I live on an island and stuff like well pumps always fail when you have company on a weekend. My pump has a rope attached for pulling, I thought this was only wise and can't imagine not using a rope as a safety for pulling the pump. The old pump had a rope attached too. I'm curious though, why would you need a new well drilled? If the pump somehow falls off it is cheaper to drill a new well than to retrieve the pump? I'm not a well driller so I don't know but I do know there are devices made for retrieving well pumps. I also am wondering why there is not a rope or cable attached to your existing pump.
Eric

 

[steve tym]

PVC drop pipe is a better choice.
Don't install a safety cable of any description. I have never rescued a pump because of one, but have lost some.
2 wire motors last for a decade, 3 wire motors last for decades.
Family business now for 87 years, been doing it since I was 7.

 

[Cub 7275]

If the current flow is good, why not put a booster pump in at the house?

Same deal here, well drillers are backed up big time. Get on the schedule if you think that's going to be required. As for 4", 5" or 6", you're most likely going to get what the well driller has to offer. Around here it's 6" steel casing, pounded or drilled, no other choices.

My brother had a well drilled a few months ago, $10K flat fee, for drilling up to 300' and setting the pump. My brother was on the hook for everything from the pitless adapter to the inside plumbing. 3 - 4 months lead time.

If there was a way to confirm it is only impeller wear causing the lack of pressure I'd do a booster setup. I'd hate to go to the trouble and expense only to get a few more months out of the pump and then have to drill a new well anyway. And Murphy's law says the pump will fail in the coldest part of the winter.... We've been quoted around $9K for drilling 100' and everything outside the house (I changed the bladder tank a few years back).

..... I'm curious though, why would you need a new well drilled? If the pump somehow falls off it is cheaper to drill a new well than to retrieve the pump? I'm not a well driller so I don't know but I do know there are devices made for retrieving well pumps. I also am wondering why there is not a rope or cable attached to your existing pump.
Eric

After 52 years the 4" steel casing has failed and it is too small to be sleeved. The existing pump has 1" galvanized sch 40 pipe from the pitless to the pump and from the pitless to the underside of cover with a center bolt that operates some kind of locking foot at the pitless. Definitely do not want that setup again. I saw the pump puller truck squat as he was trying to pull the pump, so he did put some force on it. My thought is why dump a bunch more money into it hoping the pump will come out when sediment will continue to fall into the well and eventually destroy a replacement pump? A relatively new well should be a selling point should we choose to retire elsewhere.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'll have to look in to that pump saver.

Is there any rule of thumb how close to the old well the new one can be?

Last question (I hope), our existing well is between two large pine trees. With a PVC casing are there any concerns about tree roots and/or how close a tree can be to the well?

 

[nyone]

You alreaty have a well that produces water. I would get the pump out by force. If it breaks off (and I doubt it will) let it drop all the way down and put a new pump and poly pipe ontop of it.

4in casings with a safety wire is a dumb idea. The wire can drop in or get cought on things. You just dont have alot of room in a 4in casing well. At 100ft I would just use poly. At that depth its pullable with 1 able bodied person.

 

[JethroB]

In Georgia the local health departments issue well permits based on state regulations. They will send someone out to approve the desired location for a well. The permit must be in hand and an approved driller is to be used. The well cannot be within so many feet of a septic system, open old well, open water, etc. due to potential contamination.

 

[Cub 7275]

You alreaty have a well that produces water. I would get the pump out by force. If it breaks off (and I doubt it will) let it drop all the way down and put a new pump and poly pipe ontop of it.

4in casings with a safety wire is a dumb idea. The wire can drop in or get cought on things. You just dont have alot of room in a 4in casing well. At 100ft I would just use poly. At that depth its pullable with 1 able bodied person.

So how would the new replacement pump be protected from the silt and small stones that fall into the well through the failed casing? And what stops the well bore from filling up with the debris over time? From the original driller's report the ground is layered, starting at ground level: stony clay, coarse gravel, fine water sand, clay, stony clay, sandy clay, water sand, etc. Currently our pair of water filters clog with fine silt and have small stones maybe 1/16" diameter in the bottom of the bowl. How long the filters last depends on the season. After the attempted pump removal we went through around 12 filters over several days until it went back to normal. In my ignorance, since the well isn't in solid rock, it appears we need a sound casing all the way down to inlet screen, no?

I'm all for not spending money if I don't have to, but I also don't want to shoot myself in the foot trying to save a buck.

In Georgia the local health departments issue well permits based on state regulations. They will send someone out to approve the desired location for a well. The permit must be in hand and an approved driller is to be used. The well cannot be within so many feet of a septic system, open old well, open water, etc. due to potential contamination.

Same around here. A permit is needed and the minimum distances from 31 "contamination sources" are listed. I saw nothing about how far from the old well the new one had to be. The county health department said there was no minimum distance. That said, I would think there would be some minimum distance preferred by a driller. I'd like to know so I can plan where to put the new well. It pretty much has to be in the front yard, which is where the existing well is. The closer to the existing well the better.

 

[nyone]

I didnt read it has a failed casing. Does a camera inspection support that? If it does then a new 6in well would be even more important. You can drop a 4in well liner in a 6in casing but I dont thing you can in a 4in well.

Is your water level shallow enough to use a jet pump? If so you may beable to put a pipe down any way.

 

[JethroB]

So how would the new replacement pump be protected from the silt and small stones that fall into the well through the failed casing? And what stops the well bore from filling up with the debris over time? From the original driller's report the ground is layered, starting at ground level: stony clay, coarse gravel, fine water sand, clay, stony clay, sandy clay, water sand, etc. Currently our pair of water filters clog with fine silt and have small stones maybe 1/16" diameter in the bottom of the bowl. How long the filters last depends on the season. After the attempted pump removal we went through around 12 filters over several days until it went back to normal. In my ignorance, since the well isn't in solid rock, it appears we need a sound casing all the way down to inlet screen, no?

I'm all for not spending money if I don't have to, but I also don't want to shoot myself in the foot trying to save a buck.


Same around here. A permit is needed and the minimum distances from 31 "contamination sources" are listed. I saw nothing about how far from the old well the new one had to be. The county health department said there was no minimum distance. That said, I would think there would be some minimum distance preferred by a driller. I'd like to know so I can plan where to put the new well. It pretty much has to be in the front yard, which is where the existing well is. The closer to the existing well the better.

In my case I had a hand dug or augered (?) well about 50 feet from the preferred site for a new drilled well. From the the 1930’s maybe. It was about 3 feet wide and 30 feet deep. I quietly had it filled in before requesting a permit.

 

[Valveman]

There is not much room between a 3.75" pump and 4" steel casing. A little rust in the casing and the pump is stuck. Casing is probably still good. With 1" steel drop pipe the pump man can get rough enough to most likely unstick the pump. A little acid to eat the rust may also be needed. If you get the pump out, run a camera down the well. If the casing is good but just a little rusty, I would go back with an SQ pump that is only 3" diameter. Then some 1" sch 80 or 120 PVC pipe with metal couplings would be best to hand the pump on. Torque arrestors, wire stand offs, safety cable or rope are not good ideas. All just things that can help stick a pump in the well. With good pipe like sch 80 or 120 you won't need anything for safety.

With the well pump only making 30 PSI and having to wait for a pump man. You could put in a cistern with a booster pump for temporary service. Might also make the pump in the well last much longer.

 

[Valveman]

The rust problem was not, but short pump life, splines stripped, broken pump shafts, bad start capacitors, burned pressure switches, motor rubbing on casing, tank bladders going bad, even sediment problems in the well are all caused by cycling the pump on and off too much. If you can get the old pump out, go back with a 3" pump, and adding a Cycle Stop Valve will solve just about every problem except the rust.

 

[Cougsfan]

Not knowing your local conditions, it is hard for us TBN "experts" to make expert recommendations. I would depend more heavily on the recommendations from local well drillers and installers. They have more experience in well issues that occur in your area. However I would add that wells is the one place where it is not a good idea to go cheap. If a new well becomes the answer, 6" steel casings will alleviate a lot of potential problems down the road.

 

[Valveman]

While there are still some good pump men and well drillers out there, they have become the exception, not the rule. Most now will just sell you what they have been taught by manufacturers makes them the most money. This is never the best thing for the end user. You are wise to educate yourself on pumps and wells anyway you can.

Every area is different and a local well driller/pump man should have the knowledge you need for that area. But even well people in the same area will have different ideas of what is best. In the end it is up to you if you drill a new well or try to fix the old one or both. Drilling is something that is hard to DIY. But once the well is drilled, the pump can easily be a DIY project, which could save you thousands of dollars and get you a better water system.

Just doing what the pump company spends the most advertising on could keep you in a never ending loop of planned obsolescence. It takes a little research to find the equipment like pump controls that the pump manufacturers don't want you to know about. But it could save you thousands of dollars and considerable time being out of water to find a pump control the pump industry calls "disruptive". A "disruptive" product is one that makes pumps last longer, which is always a good thing for the end users.

 

[Cougsfan]

While there are still some good pump men and well drillers out there, they have become the exception, not the rule. Most now will just sell you what they have been taught by manufacturers makes them the most money.

This may unfortunately be true is some areas. However where I live, the ones I know are exceptionally honest, knowledgeable and not at all out to fleece you. Maybe we are an exception, but I hope not.