Attached GARAGE (homeowner) thoughts

[bdhsfz6]

Water is NOT GOOD for a lithium battery fire!

 

[newbury]

And their polices state a certain distance away for the detached garage(s) or outbuildings too.

Any idea what the distance required is?

 

[ponytug]

Water is NOT GOOD for a lithium battery fire!

Actually, water cooling is the currently recommended fire fighting technique- everything is about keeping the fire as cool as possible. Getting the cells below 500C is critical. A new firefighting method from Sweden shows real promise. It is basically a pressure washer that can cut into the battery to inject water into the cell area to get the temperature down.

New revolutionary method tested extinguishes lithium-Ion EV fires in ten minutes with minimal water use

The water consumption was calculated to be around 750 liters / 200 gallons in total, with a combined use of the Cobra cutting extinguisher and traditional fire extinguishing with water.

ctif.org

However, the whole lithium car fire concern is grossly overblown, and not supported by fact.

Lithium EVs combust at 5% of the frequency of ICE vehicles, a number the adjusts for the differences in numbers. I.e. an EV is a (much) lower fire risk by a lot compared to a typical ICE.
Extinguishing the EV Battery Fire Hype (nice data from Sweden)

All the best,

Peter

 

[WinterDeere]

However, the whole lithium car fire concern is grossly overblown, and not supported by fact.

Lithium EVs combust at 5% of the frequency of ICE vehicles, a number the adjusts for the differences in numbers. I.e. an EV is a (much) lower fire risk by a lot compared to a typical ICE.

I've always suspected this, but I think the issue for some is timing. ICE's seem more likely to combust while in use, due to things like rodents nesting on exhaust manifolds or fuel system leaks in the engine compartment. But EV's seem more likely to spontaneously combust while charging in your garage, with your kids are sleeping in the bedroom above. Lower frequency, I had always suspected, but higher impact.

 

[ponytug]

I've always suspected this, but I think the issue for some is timing. ICE's seem more likely to combust while in use, due to things like rodents nesting on exhaust manifolds or fuel system leaks in the engine compartment. But EV's seem more likely to spontaneously combust while charging in your garage, with your kids are sleeping in the bedroom above. Lower frequency, I had always suspected, but higher impact.

You raise an interesting point, but I'm not finding actual data for fires while charging vs other sources. That said,

"From 2012 – 2021, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 210 million miles traveled. By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and U.S. Department of Transportation shows that in the United States there is a vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled.​

In order to provide an apt comparison to NFPA data, Tesla’s data set includes instances of vehicle fires caused by structure fires, arson, and other things unrelated to the vehicle, which account for some of the Tesla vehicle fires over this time period."​

​

https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

Note that the fire rate above includes all fires regardless of cause for Tesla vehicles.

All the best,

Peter

 

[KennyG]

It would also be interesting to see how many fires are the result of crashes for ICEs and EVs. A lot of nuances in the data.

 

[ponytug]

It would also be interesting to see how many fires are the result of crashes for ICEs and EVs. A lot of nuances in the data.

I agree. That is the data that I tried (and am trying) to find. As far as I can tell, crashes are a common cause for fires in both types, but I'm not coming up with solid data for the frequency. One source pointed out that for EVs, the fires tended to have a delayed onset, unlike gasoline fires, but I would prefer to see data rather than anecdote.

Plus, there is the demographic factors as well. E.g. Are EV drivers different in their driving habits? Not 16? Older? But not too old? All probably relevant at some level, but those factors and the EV itself add up to ten times lower frequency of a fire.

All the best,

Peter

 

[WinterDeere]

There are so many studies out there on thermal runaway due to mechanical damage, that we know accidents must be either a leading cause of battery fires, or at least thought to be a leading probable cause. But we also know from 20 years of Li-Ion tech in laptops and phones, that if they're going to catch fire without mechanical damage, it is almost always while charging. EV batteries are a little more complex than those in your laptop or phone, LFP technology, but I was making the leap from one to the other based on the number of news stories showing EV fires while parked.

Maybe I just fell for their narrative, but if EV's are catching fires in garages, I'm not sure why anyone would make up a false narrative that charging was a key factor... in fact it would be even scarier if it were not. After all, if they only catch fire without mechanical damage while charging, I can control that by just programming charge time for when we're awake.

 

[ponytug]

I think that when things are new, stories get coverage. I used to read old newspapers (long story) and in the early 1900s there are a bunch of stories of cars and garages catching fire from gasoline. Fires in stables weren't uncommon, but not as newsworthy, and usually buried in the back somewhere.

I think that the same thing is going on with EVs; they are new, and that makes news about them newsworthy, not to say clickbait, but like a lot of things, in can be hard to keep the entirety of the picture in view.

I think the same is true in medicine, with great coverage of the latest drug, or procedure, or article, with a lot less about exercising, getting out in nature, and having, and maintaining, a good social circle- too boring.

All the best,

Peter

 

[newbury]

You raise an interesting point, but I'm not finding actual data for fires while charging vs other sources. That said,

"From 2012 – 2021, there has been approximately one Tesla vehicle fire for every 210 million miles traveled. By comparison, data from the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) and U.S. Department of Transportation shows that in the United States there is a vehicle fire for every 19 million miles traveled.​

In order to provide an apt comparison to NFPA data, Tesla’s data set includes instances of vehicle fires caused by structure fires, arson, and other things unrelated to the vehicle, which account for some of the Tesla vehicle fires over this time period."​

​

https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

Note that the fire rate above includes all fires regardless of cause for Tesla vehicles.

All the best,

Peter

"one Tesla vehicle fire"
What about other brands of electric cars?
Do Bolts catch on fire?
/edit - quick look- yup they do.
Actually I'm more concerned about all my DeWalt 20V and Flexvolt batteries, and ensuring they are unplugged.
for instance