grsthegreat
Super Star Member
Thats true, but 2” pvc conduit is rated to carry 4 runs of 4/0 wire without issues.
caver
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Do you recall what section of code that is in? I knew about sub panels but wasn't aware of the 1st breaker turning my cabin into a sub. I have this (picture) getting ready to happen by the end of summer. I do have a Coop breaker right before the pole month meter that i think is 400amp. A bit overkill. I plan to meet with a Coop guy soon next time I'm over there. Ideally I would like for them to run about 100+ of triplex and set another pole. If I have them put a 2nd service right by my cabin that's another $500+ a year for at least one meter mostly at idle. into a sub panel.
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BackRoad
Veteran Member
Two years ago, we had about 150 feet of buried from the last pole with the transformer to the meter base on the house.
The Co-Op provided the aluminum feeder wire, all wound and wrapped together, but before providing the wire, they required the meter base to be mounted and the conduit to be buried and inspected. So the actual wire install was a tough pull with 4 guys, two pushing and two pulling when we put it in.
The other thing they required (by code I was told) was we had to bury a red 4 inch plastic warning tape along the length of the run, 12 inches above the conduit, so anyone digging would "hopefully" stop upon digging up the tape!
The Co-Op provided the aluminum feeder wire, all wound and wrapped together, but before providing the wire, they required the meter base to be mounted and the conduit to be buried and inspected. So the actual wire install was a tough pull with 4 guys, two pushing and two pulling when we put it in.
The other thing they required (by code I was told) was we had to bury a red 4 inch plastic warning tape along the length of the run, 12 inches above the conduit, so anyone digging would "hopefully" stop upon digging up the tape!
DarkBlack
Elite Member
Maybe the code has changed lately, or there’s some regional variations on the NEC standard being mentioned here. This installation sounds like a pole meter loop to me. That panel on the pole, probably feeds only the new house. It’s effectively acting as a disconnect with one downstream load.
I disagree with calling and treating the new house main service panel, a sub-panel.
I also disagree with the need or desire , to run a grounding conductor from the pole to the new house.
The first panel in the house is the main service panel. There should be a grounding rod at the house, same as every other house. This is where your main panel will bond the neutral with ground . You certainly don’t want to not physically earth ground at the house entrance, and rely on a little ground wire running 150 feet to a pole meter setup
I disagree with calling and treating the new house main service panel, a sub-panel.
I also disagree with the need or desire , to run a grounding conductor from the pole to the new house.
The first panel in the house is the main service panel. There should be a grounding rod at the house, same as every other house. This is where your main panel will bond the neutral with ground . You certainly don’t want to not physically earth ground at the house entrance, and rely on a little ground wire running 150 feet to a pole meter setup
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ponytug
Super Member
I'm not, repeat not, an electrician.
Isn't the underlying issue where the neutral to ground bonding occurs? A panel with a meter and a breaker at the pole needs a ground. A panel at a separate building (sub panel or not) needs a ground rod grounding the building wiring.
If the ground to neutral bonding is at the meter, then wouldn't a ground be required? If there is no bonding at the meter, then the ground there is local to the meter and panel, with no further need for a ground to be continued to the house, right? What am I missing? (Think of the meter panel to the house from the perspective of a service drop that has a neutral, grounded at the pole in the center of the transformer, and the neutral grounded (bonded) at the main panel. What is different?)
I would readily admit that the logic of the NEC escapes me sometimes, but I recognize that their hearts are trying to do the right thing for safety.
All the best,
Peter
grsthegreat
Super Star Member
Ok, here goes.
The FIRST panel which includes the meter AND a breaker HAS to have a ground rod or 2 and the ground wire AND the neutral have to be bound together within the panel. In other words the ground and neutral can be located on the same buss, or the neutral buss will have a green screw that attaches to the metal can.
Years and years ago, only 2 hots and a neutral had to go to any other subpanel and at the subpanels the additional ground rods and wires were again bonded together. This went away a long time ago.
Currently, EVERY OTHER subpanel HAS to have 4 wires run for single phase, 240v power. 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. Every subpanel has to have a isolated neutral buss (cant be mechanically grounded in any way) AND a grounded buss bar. The neutral and ground cannot connect together in any fashion in a subpanel.
The FIRST panel which includes the meter AND a breaker HAS to have a ground rod or 2 and the ground wire AND the neutral have to be bound together within the panel. In other words the ground and neutral can be located on the same buss, or the neutral buss will have a green screw that attaches to the metal can.
Years and years ago, only 2 hots and a neutral had to go to any other subpanel and at the subpanels the additional ground rods and wires were again bonded together. This went away a long time ago.
Currently, EVERY OTHER subpanel HAS to have 4 wires run for single phase, 240v power. 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. Every subpanel has to have a isolated neutral buss (cant be mechanically grounded in any way) AND a grounded buss bar. The neutral and ground cannot connect together in any fashion in a subpanel.
grsthegreat
Super Star Member
For that long of a run, you will need to upsize the wire that you run due to voltage drop. If it were me, id run a longer primary utility run towards the house instead of a huge secondary wire required for a 260’ run.
At 260’ to maintain a 3% voltage drop you would need to run
400kcml aluminum @ $2.30/ft x 3 plus smaller ground
250kcml copper @ $ 6.49/ft x 3 plus smaller ground
When planning a new service, we try and keep transformer within 100’ of the residence to keep from having to upsize the wire size to account for voltage drop.
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grsthegreat
Super Star Member
For the code, its very complicated. Covered under article 230. Grounding requirements under article 250.
But basically, back in 2008, they eliminated the ability to feed a subpanel with 3 wires and reestablish a new grounding system. But it grandfathered in old installations (like my house) where this was allowed in the past.
But basically, back in 2008, they eliminated the ability to feed a subpanel with 3 wires and reestablish a new grounding system. But it grandfathered in old installations (like my house) where this was allowed in the past.
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DarkBlack
Elite Member
Utility company’s pole meter loop requirements take priority over NEC code. If they require your neutral bonded to earth ground at the pole, in addition to simply earth grounding metal parts, then you have no choice.
But, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s in direct opposition to NEC code stating, never bond more than one point, for good reasons.
This means it you ground at the service entrance at the house, you now have 2 neutral-ground bonds separated by 150’. Not good. The pole to house ground and neutral are now parallel current paths.
If you choose to not, earth ground at the house, your house ground wires are relying on 150’ of a ground wire in a pvc pipe to the pole earth location. Far from ideal….
That’s why normal pole transformer to house meter installations don’t run a ground wire.
But, it doesn’t change the fact that it’s in direct opposition to NEC code stating, never bond more than one point, for good reasons.
This means it you ground at the service entrance at the house, you now have 2 neutral-ground bonds separated by 150’. Not good. The pole to house ground and neutral are now parallel current paths.
If you choose to not, earth ground at the house, your house ground wires are relying on 150’ of a ground wire in a pvc pipe to the pole earth location. Far from ideal….
That’s why normal pole transformer to house meter installations don’t run a ground wire.
ultrarunner
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It’s fascinating to me to see the evolution of residential service starting around 1910 to now…
I almost bought a Victorian with original gas lighting that was refit for electric often reusing the gas pipe as conduit for wire and the gas fixtures electrified.
Many prewar nothing more than one hot and a neutral with a single 30 amp Edison fuse main.
At todays cost of material running new underground service could very well require a mortgage…
No wonder so many shopping centers are hit by copper thieves stealing wire running to parking lot lights.
12 years ago my brother wanted lights in the tractor shed some distance from the home…
I penciled it all out and he decided to wait until copper prices dropped and is still waiting.
What about a step up transformer at the source and step down at the shop so as to be able to reduce conductor size?
I did wire the shed but went with 12 volt solar battery system and RV bulbs.
I almost bought a Victorian with original gas lighting that was refit for electric often reusing the gas pipe as conduit for wire and the gas fixtures electrified.
Many prewar nothing more than one hot and a neutral with a single 30 amp Edison fuse main.
At todays cost of material running new underground service could very well require a mortgage…
No wonder so many shopping centers are hit by copper thieves stealing wire running to parking lot lights.
12 years ago my brother wanted lights in the tractor shed some distance from the home…
I penciled it all out and he decided to wait until copper prices dropped and is still waiting.
What about a step up transformer at the source and step down at the shop so as to be able to reduce conductor size?
I did wire the shed but went with 12 volt solar battery system and RV bulbs.
