Natural gas?

[IXLR8]

In hindsight I wish I would have done a heat pump water heater. The hot water lag KILLS me on our tankless. So much so that I will have a work around by the winter. Planning on a recirc pump with a cold water bypass.

I put in a recirc pump on my system that I can turn on/off remotely so it doesn't run all the time, that helped a lot with the delay. But my tankless system is a cheap no name brand put in by the previous owner and the output temp fluctuates a good deal. I figure with a 65 gallon tank... temps won't fluctuate.

 

[HawkinsHollow]

I put in a recirc pump on my system that I can turn on/off remotely so it doesn't run all the time, that helped a lot with the delay. But my tankless system is a cheap no name brand put in by the previous owner and the output temp fluctuates a good deal. I figure with a 65 gallon tank... temps won't fluctuate.

I would definitely put it on a timer so it is only running when we need it to. I have a Rinnai, best in the business they say. Still takes 90 seconds to get water to the master shower. But I digress, lets talk about natural gas.

 

[dstig1]

You can't beat natural gas as a home energy source. It is so much cheaper than electricity for anything other than possibly a heat pump. In your climate, an air source heat pump is probably a great way to go with nat gas backup, if that is possible. For heating water, only passive solar is cheaper, but of course less consistently reliable.

The philosophical bit here is why nat gas is so much cheaper. Every time you convert an energy source from one type to another, there are losses, from efficiency and just basic physics. So burning nat gas to make electricity means you lose something like 30% of the energy content of the gas in the conversion of nat gas to electric. Then you lose more along the way in transmission, etc. Whereas nat gas is pretty close to drill hole in ground, pump it out and send it to houses. I do believe they do one refining step on it to take out certain components for other uses (like propane, etc, and helium often comes from nat gas) but the point is so little is done to it that you are not converting that energy source to anything until you burn it in your house. And modern gas appliances can be 95+% efficient quite easily. Very small losses in extraction and supply means very low cost energy source.

I don't understand the complaint about the delay for on-demand water heaters. There is always a delay, no matter the source (tank or tankless) as the water in the lines is cold, unless you do a recirc pump as a few folks mentioned. Of course it depends a lot on the distance, too. Is the delay slightly longer on tankless? Yeah a few seconds as it has to fire up first, but we are talking maybe an extra 5-10 seconds here and if you are using hot water for a shower or anything long just wait a few seconds for it. If that is too much for you, either do a recirc system, or put small electric point-of-use heaters at each faucet you want instant heat so it heats the water immediately until the hot water arrives from the main unit. For a long run, that may make sense and our kitchen island is like that. In hindsight I wish I put a POU heater there. Still probably could, if I really wanted to...

But make dang sure you have soft water with a tankless water heater or you will destroy it fast.

 

[repete]

We have lived in our current house for over 30 years and it's all electric with geothermal, no gas and I am glad we don't have it!

Three of our previous houses were built in the 70's and early 80's & each had natural gas with their original old style furnace.

I don't miss the burning hot heat from the registers, or the occasional smell of gas near the furnace when it had just fired up & started heating.

I realize the new gas furnaces are way better and light years ahead, but sorry I prefer geothermal.

I use pellet stove, electric heaters and propane. The propane is not my "Go to" for primary heat but when the power goes out I like the fact that I can run it on a suitcase generator.
I invested in insulation and quality construction when I built my home in 1995. R-50 in the attic space and R-19 in the walls with a radiant barrier within the wall's cavity. 95% efficiency furnaces (2). A/C is tied into the second floor gas furnace as the air handler. Did not want heat pump as we live in the sticks and when the power goes out on our dead end road it stays out till everyone gets restored. If there is a road with five customers out it gets a higher priority.
What I truly dislike is being mandated to do something.

 

[ultrarunner]

Difficult to get new natural gas as the Bay Area powers that be want all electric.

Natural gas isn’t cheap… $80 a month for hot water and Saturday clothes dryer.

My electricity is solar and I produce excess so I am considering an electric water heater when the time comes…

I think it really come down to regional preferences.

I will add that during the big 1989 Earthquake electricity was out for 10 days…

My all electric neighbors didn’t have it so good.

My natural gas stove, water heater and whole house gravity gas furnace never missed a beat…

 

[ponytug]

Then again, one ten day outage in 36 years isn't that bad. For me, it definitely comes under the "be prepared" umbrella.

We had four electrical outages yesterday. Supposedly each one was an "object touching wire". That the crews missed three times?

It does make me think that the utility couldn't "organize a piss up in a brewery" to save its life. I guess the good news for me is that they are demonstrably so incompetent, that I don't expect them to survive much longer as a going concern.

@Sigarms I would go the route that you proposed with dual fuel heat pump heating, though I would go with an induction stove over a gas stove. (And keep a camping stove around, just in case.) In my experience, gas service can be interrupted for all sorts of reasons from crews hitting a line, to corrosion, to demand surges when severe cold hits, so I think a plan B is worthing having, especially if one has indoor plumbing.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

At the cabin we have propane and 50 years blessed with no busted pipes from freezing…

Neighbors that were all electric did have problems when the power went out…

A propane tank is preparedness in the big picture unless the neighborhood band of bears intervene…

 

[bigtiller]

If I ever need/get to buy another HVAC unit, it will be a high efficacy gas unit that the exhaust and fresh air go through the wall and not the roof. It will also have a control setting to dehumidify in the summer and humidify in the winter.

 

[Rockbadchild]

If I ever need/get to buy another HVAC unit, it will be a high efficacy gas unit that the exhaust and fresh air go through the wall and not the roof. It will also have a control setting to dehumidify in the summer and humidify in the winter.

the new one almost need to go through the wall...

 

[Sigarms]

It will also have a control setting to dehumidify in the summer and humidify in the winter.

Gas furnace has little to do with humidity in the ductwork.

NOTHING will reduce a high humidity level like dedicated whole house dehumidifier.

When we had realtors looking at out house, everyone made the comment about the tankless water heater. Not one single person mentioned the whole house dehumidifier that stood out like a sore thumb piped into the ductowork.