'06 3510i - needs motor - doing my homework

[WadeC]

I have an '06 Branson 3510i with BL10a loader that was given to me by my dad due to engine failure. He had it at the shop and they quoted between 12.5k (getting a short block) and 15.5k (them getting parts and doing the rebuild) to fix it (not a branson dealer so there was additional parts mark up on top of dealer cost for parts - so sure thats a big factor). So he opted for a different tractor for his hobby farming and gave it to me to either part out, scrap, or fix. I do not have it apart yet - nor do I have it pulled (looks like it would need to be split rather than pulled and dont have the shop space at the moment to let it sit - but will ask more about that in a bit ).

I wasnt present when it started its downhill decent - so cant speak for sounds, etc other than I know it was burning a lot of oil, and it got ran for about three hours when the oil got checked and went from full to 3qt low in that 3 hours. Guessing that had more to do with the spun rod bearing than the bad injectors.

It has the A17000N2-D Kukje engine in it... What I know of - from the shop telling me - is:

Likely injectors went bad and thinned oil.
Spun rod bearing - crank may or may not be salvageable
Rod likely needs replaced
Cylinders scored - (They said needs liners but my research has led me to believe they went to a solid block rather than using liners?)

So knowing the above, Im guessing aside from the typical complete gasket and seal set, fluids, filters, and so forth, Id be looking at potentially:
Cylinder sleeves or boring the block
Pistons
Rings
At least one connecting rod
All bearings (main, rod, cam?, others?)
Injectors

I also heard from the shop, that a short block would be about $4700 - which would eliminate a lot of work and parts - at the cost of well... money. :/

Anyone ever get in one of these A1700N2-D motors? Have alternate sources for parts? Used parts? Tips? Thoughts? Ideas? There are only two Branson dealers around here, and both are a long ways away - and neither of them seem to really be "tractor places" - more like trailer sales, welding, that sort of thing... which leaves me a little hesitant.
Am I crazy even thinking about fixing it? I just get the feeling like its going to be a lot of money to put into a tractor - and it may not be worth it once its done. Tried finding a used motor etc... but not having any luck finding anything used for these... Maybe there is a different motor with the same crank and transmission bolt patters that can be fitted? Or one close enough that I can make an adapter plate to mount?

I know it is a cummins design made by Kukje under license... so part of me was hoping a Cummins A1700 might be the same basic engine and could maybe have better luck finding something to swap in there?

The other options are to scrap it or part it out - but seems like it might be tough parting it out unless I could find someone wanting the whole thing for parts... and for the weight, probably not likely to be worth the cost of hauling it to the local recycler.

Just not 100% sure what to do with it... Open to just about any info I can get... be it tips for splitting it to get the motor out and on a stand - to parts or a place that might want it as is or something.

Thanks
Wade

 

[ptsg]

You get away with it with Cummins parts but maybe someone more experienced can pop in and help you a bit more.

Anyway, here a couple things for you to check and maybe helping on a decision.

This is a really good place for Branson parts: Branson Tractors

I've never deal with them since I'm from the other side of the pond but I've seen positive feedback here in the forum.

And this is the Parts catalogue for the F36 (3515) but the engine is the same A1700.

Branson F36 Parts Catalogue

 

[Stimw]

Your location would help. ??
How many hours on it?
I would look for a GOOD local diesel shop with a good reputation.
Everything will be guessing until you get it apart and checked out.

I was at my favorite local shop 30 years ago, a guy came in with a 1920's Italian motorcycle piston looking for parts.
Shop owner pulled out his caliper, measured, walked in parts room and came out with VW piston that matched !!!
Do your homework, tractor must have some value!
Never give up, never surrender!

 

[Hombre]

What kind of shape is the rest of the tractor in? Like asked before, how many hours on it, to get an idea of condition for the rest of the drive train. Compare the value of a like tractor to the cost of fixing the one you have to get an idea if the value is worth the cost. Friend was given an 85ish 30hp Kubota that was in rough, rough, shape. Sat out in the weather forever, sheet metal was beat to ****. (How does a person get the hood and grill parts beat up so bad, especially with a front end loader in place?) Fenders looked like someone had a mad on and took a three pound ball peen hammer to them. Pulled the head, rust in the cyl walls, water sitting on one piston, pretty bad all round. To make a long story a bit shorter, new head, injection pump and injectors rebuilt, glow plugs AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHER STUFF, by the time he was finished and the tractor was/is running very well he had a bit over 3 grand in it. Beat out most of the sheet metal dents, rattle can paint job, new rops and lights and just general clean up. Nice tractor now. I have no doubt he could get 5 or 6 grand out of it, maybe more, but it is a Kubota and folks seem to lose their minds when it comes to buying used Kubotas. I did help him do some of the work on it but he is a very handy fellow. The funny part about the whole thing is, he don't even need a tractor...he lives in town. :laughing:

 

[WadeC]

Im in Colorado... bout an hour NE of Denver
Has 1100 hours on it... was pretty well maintained as best I know - oil changes at 50 hours (but obviously that doesnt help injectors - assuming injectors is what caused the problems - which seems likely) hyd filters, fule filter, greased etc... Lived outside but was tarped over the seat and dash when not in use. Has ran sweeps, brush hog, disc, spring tooth, and pulled an old Oliver drill around. Dad bought it new, and has done most of the maintenance on it... and what he hasnt done, I have.

The shop had it partially apart - head off and pan off, and they stopped investigating when they got to the cylinder walls and spun rod bearing and are pretty sure the damage started at the injectors. (The shop is a case/kubota dealer with a good rep as far as I can find and having used to be a mechanic - never felt I was getting any BS from them)

They were straight up with us the whole time - having to use a branson dealer for parts cause there just wasnt anything out there aftermarket, their mark up on parts, saying it probably wasnt worth the cost of having them repair it once they got to the cylinder walls and crank, but may be worth it if I wanted to do it as a project and had the money to sink into it, etc... Felt like they were straight shooters. They said they were a bit shocked at the parts prices too - and that parts were a huge portion of the total estimate. Maybe they were being more thorough than need be or I would be... or maybe not. Ive not priced parts directly myself yet.

Part of my concern is that it is a Branson... rather than a Kubota... at least in terms of value if it were to get fixed and sold off. And if Im going to have to sink 5-7k in parts plus time and any machine work I cant do myself, it starts to look more and more like a paper weight. Branson isnt a big name here it seems, and Branson so far has left me a bit less than impressed.

Seems like 10-14k is the range Ive seen, but again nothing local Ive talked with Cummins, and they were not much help, guessing I have to get above the parts/service dept and get to an applications engineer to find out if there is any chance a cummins version would be possible to replace the Kukje version.

Ive spent quite a bit of time chasing info online and got next to nowhere. Locally - there just arent a lot of them and the places I have talked to just dont know much about branson or kukje.

I know that its not worth the 12.5 - 15.5k to fix it... and if my time has any value, which it does, its hard to even consider spending 5-7k on parts. Thats part of why I was mentioning used motors or used parts - that might help make it worth the time and space in the shop while inevitably waiting for weeks for parts and so forth.

I guess Im sort of hoping theres a branson bone yard out there somewhere... or someone that rolled a tractor or something and has a good motor that needs a home - be it as a place for me to get a motor, or me being a place for them to get the tractor to go around their motor. But of course, that will probably mean shipping something somewhere - which adds to the cost/detracts from the value in most cases.

Thanks for the thoughts and input thus far.
Wade

 

[Hombre]

There are a couple Branson dealers (that I know of) on this site. Perhaps they'll chime in with some expert information and/or better options for you. It would be nice if you would keep us informed as to what you find out and the direction you take with it. I agree with what your assessment of value is with the tractor, from what I've been able to find, in good condition it would seem "around" 12 grand for one like your's is a reasonable price. IF it had a new motor maybe a bit more would be in line.

 

[WadeC]

Thanks!
Yeah I wouldnt object to a "crate motor" if it wasnt some absurd price (obviously that is subjective though). I just have a hard time understanding how a tractor that was 16k new with a loader - would be nearing 10k for the equivalent of a crate motor that still needed all the other expensive stuff moved over or 4500-4700 for a short block. But Ive never been one to understand the pricing on lots of things... Im just too broke or cheap or something Im sure.

If it werent for the time investment - Id look at chasing down a 35ish HP motor and figure out how to make it work - but not sure I have the interest or time to fight that to end up with a "Frankenstein" that would almost certainly have a diminished value once completed. Done a few of those over the years and it always turns into a mess trying to track what application this or that came from for parts down the road.

It may end up being a paper weight for a while until I get tired of looking at it or stumble into something somewhere that makes it seem affordable to fix. Just a matter of if I pull it apart between now and then or not. Just a little more iron in there, and they could have made it so you could just pull the motor instead of having to split it... But I guess thats just not how tractors are made - so they were just following suit.

Wade

 

[Agvg]

First find out if this engine is of so high quality that the manufacturer has design it to be overhauled, that you can machine it and overdim parts are to buy. If yes get prices on bearings, complete pistons and gaskets, I proper engine shop should be able to give you prices the work and then you have some numbers to look at.
If its a common model I suspects that selling it in parts may be the most profitable to do.

 

[ericm979]

Here's a bit of information on A series block changes: http://manuals.chudov.com/Cummins-A-Series-Diesel-Engine-Specs.pdf

 

[Stimw]

The link says "cast iron block with dry liners".
That means block is easily repairable!
Change liners, go with stock pistons.
Again, a good diesel shop should be able to source generic parts.