2 specs and HP ratings

getut · May 6, 2005

I've been meaning to ask this since BEFORE I even got my CK20 almost a year ago now, but for some reason or another, never got around to it.

On Kioti's site in the engine listings for the 3C093, the one in the CK20 and LB1914, there are two specs listed. 2 completely different engines because the sizes, oil capacity and outputs are even different. What is up with that?

Also, it appears like the 21HP engine is a bit of a marketing ploy. According to the graph, the engines put out almost but not quite 19HP at 3000RPM. About 18HP exactly at rated speed (2800RPM). All the CK20's' that I have seen are throttle limited to around 3000RPM, so never reach 20 or even 21HP. It makes me wonder about the PTO HP. Is that HP marketing also? Does it take an un-attainable engine RPM (because of the throttle limit) to reach the published PTO output level?

Oh.. and don't get me wrong.. I'm not trying to start trouble. I love my Kioti and it does lots of work. Its just that (all) marketing people are evil (to their black hole cores) /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif. I would still get this tractor again, but I do wish they would post realistic numbers and throw the marketing people into a big hole in the back yard.

Bob_Skurka · May 6, 2005

Just curious, but does Kioti submit tractors to the Nebraska testing procedures?

That testing is typically done for larger units, but some manufacturers publish, or at least have this data available as it comes from an independent testing source. If they do, I suspect they would follow the same ratings on all their equipment, that might provide some sort of answer to you.

getut · May 6, 2005

I've never seen test results if they do.... and I researched my purchase for darn near 2 months before buying. 2 months to research something is forever when your job deals with computers. That 2 months of time equates to reading about them for what probably averaged 4 hours per day for that whole time period.

Long story short, I MOST likely would have seen them if they existed for my tractor.

KiotiJohn · May 6, 2005

Many of the things posted on the Kioti site are not quite up to par. I used to help the woman who was in charge of the website to catch prolbems, and she did a great job of making changes as she could, but she also had a lot of other jobs to do at the same time. Now she has been moved to a different section, and a new website is in the works.
These types of problems should be corrected with the new site. Nebraska doesn't test small compact tractors as far as what I've read.
All the MFGs seem to tweak the specs on all their tractors to some degree. You're right, the marketing people are to blame. I have no doubt that I'm getting pretty much what I expected from my CK20 engine, and the PTO HP must be there because I could have used another foot of brush cutter than I do.
I'm happy enough with mine.
John

getut · May 6, 2005

Oh yea... same here.. Happy with the tractor. In fact like I said in the first post.. I actually noticed the problem BEFORE buying and I still ended up with Kioti, so it obviously wasn't a deal killer for me or even something slightly less that would have driven me to another brand.

All that above is irrelevant though... the information is obviously wrong and I don't see Kioti rebranding the CK20 as the CK19, which according to the chart is all the engine will produce at the current cap of 3000RPM on all of them. So thus my sentiment of dragging all the marketing people to a big hole in the back yard. The engineers at Daedong did a fine job on the CK20(19) and it is a fine tractor. Marketing just says it is more than it is.

Since they won't rebrand or redo the literature, about the most I see them doing is hiding the chart showing the output being 19HP at 3000RPM on future versions of the site and I hope I'm wrong on that one.. because their already doing something not quite right... it would be even worse if they try to hide it.

Disclaimer. Kioti isn't alone in these practices... ALL of them do it. ALL of them are WRONG for doing it.

getut · May 6, 2005

Seems so far that we've got blinders on to the HP issue, I'm still curious what the deal is with the seemingly two totally different versions of the 3c093 engine. See attachment.

shoppintractors · May 6, 2005

Marketing just says it is more than it is. 

I think your a bit premature in that statement. We need the correct information before that assessment can be made. I don't believe your have to reach 3600 RPM to achieve 21HP. I see a possible typo.

Going to the Daedong website.......it shows the 3C093 outputting 19hp @ 2800RPM. It also shows a pattern of gaining 1HP for every 2000RPM. Which would put 21HP at 3200RPM's.

From a conversation I had some 2 1/2 years ago I recollect the engine was modified to meet current emission standards which could explain the different measurements and capacities & could also be the reason the CK20 engine is rated for better fuel economy. It was also my understanding the injector timing was improved upon to achieve the 21HP.

The CK20 pages @ kioti.com shows the engine reaching 21HP at 2800RPM. I'm surmising the 3C093 engine could reach 21HP @ 3200RPM from the information on the Daedong site.

Could the possibility exist by modifying the engine to meet emission standards and tweaking the injector timing, the engine could reach 21HP @ 2800RPM as stated on the CK20 page @ kioti.com???

In my mind there's to much dis-jointed information to draw any concrete conclusions.......but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility either.

Don

KiotiJohn · May 7, 2005

( Could the possibility exist by modifying the engine to meet emission standards and tweaking the injector timing, the engine could reach 21HP @ 2800RPM as stated on the CK20 page @ kioti.com??? )
Yes, that's quite possible, and one can find the same thing happening on just about every brand of tractor. Often, just a little tweaking has been the way MFGs have upped the HP ratings on the same engines.
I think you're right, it's just a typo on the website. As you know, Don, I spent a good deal of time helping to correct a lot of typos on the site. Right now, it's more difficult to do as things have changed in the office there, and I haven't had time to do much in the way of helping.
John

bluechip · May 7, 2005

I sell Kioti and also other brands of tractor with daedong engines. I have noticed that same displacement engines in non kioti tractors are rated at a little less HP. It could be this spec is for the engine as sold by daedong as a stand alone product, to ouside OEMs. Iit could be that for competitive reasons they tune their own engines for a little better HP output. For example, the engine in the 2810 mahindra is the same displacement as the 3054 Kioti, yet the kioti offers 2 more HP at the same 2700rpm... I too have wondered about this...

getut · May 7, 2005

I'm speaking more of the graph and chart straight from Kioti's website (see the attachment I did a few posts up.. that is straight from the Kioti site). The graph clearly shows slightly less than 19HP at 3000RPM. The HP curve is clearly flattening as RPM gets higher. If the curve continues it would be just about 21HP at 3600RPM.

I would be interested to see third party dyno tests on the engine.