2013 Kioti DK45se Hydro cranking but no start

[gsholz]

Tractor has been flawless for 5 years (350 hours). It has always started immediately at first crank. But now it cranks/turns over but does not start (selector in N).

I suspect the fuel shutoff solenoid is sticking or burned out - the silver cylinder in front of the injection pump. The three wire connector on it has blue, black, red wires and there is 12V between red and black wires with ignition on. But I don't hear it clicking when I turn the key.

Has anybody replaced the solenoid? Other ideas on what could be wrong? Where would one get maintenance/parts manual?

Thanks, Gerald

 

[ritcheyvs]

The stop solenoid (SS) is easy to replace but a bad SS relay is a more likely. These are common automotive relays available at any auto supply store (like Autozone). The three wires to the SS are ground return, pull coil, and hold coil. Some older models only have two wires with ground return provided by the engine block. The SS relay should be activated for about 1 second to deliver a high current (like 25 amps) to the SS pull coil to retract the plunger (against spring tension), thus allowing the injection pump rack to move. Once retracted, a small (like 1 amp) current to the hold coil holds the plunger in the retracted position until the key switch is turned off.

The SS relay is just like the starter relay (both on the firewall but different from the glow relay). For a quick test you can swap connectors between these two identical relays to see if that makes the SS work. If the SS relay is bad, the starter probably won't crank after swapping relay connectors.

You can also unbolt and remove the SS to see if that allows the engine to start. But be prepared to stop the engine with the manual stop lever. This would prove if the problem is SS-related or not.

You can also test the SS pull coil by applying 12v directly to the pull pin of the SS pigtail (with the ground pin grounded). Only do this for a second or two or it can overheat the SS coil.

Finally, the Display Unit is the thing that provides the 1 sec pulse to the SS relay coil and it could be the problem.

But the most likely cause id the SS relay, based on the experience of others.

 

[gsholz]

Thanks for the detailed response. I'll check out the relays tomorrow.

 

[Dave M7040]

Kioti uses two different solenoids and designs and it would be worthwhile to clarify exactly which you have as they operate completely differently.

This is a photo showing the two types. On the photo on the right with the gold solenoid, all linkages are internal.
On the photo on the left, which sounds like what you have, the linkage is external.

My Kioti knowledge is a little stale so plse bear with me.
.
On one solenoid, I think the gold one, the solenoid is powered through a 10 second timer which starts counting when you turn the key switch off. In other words it takes power to stop the engine.

On the other design, there are two internal coils within the housing. A pull in coil and a hold coil. The pull in coil works when the key is in start as it will overheat if powered too long. The hold coil is powered when the key switch is on and it is a low power coil that can stay powered up for as long as the tractor is running.

If your solenoid has external linkage connecting it to the injection pump, you should be able to move the linkage manually and also see it move when cranking the engine.

With no power to either pull the solenoid using the high power internal coil, or power to hold the coil pulled in, the engine gets no fuel.

ritcheyvs has provided a very good description of the one type of solenoid.

My Kioti WSM has the wiring diagram for the other type.

I do think you should be able to manually move the linkage with the key on and see if the linkage stays where you pulled it and allows the engine to start.
If that happens, then we can focus on why the "pull in," circuit is not working.

Dave M7040

 

[rhunt]

Thanks Dave, great info. Bob

 

[gsholz]

I have the right (gold) type of solenoid and unfortunately all linkages are internal. No manual stop lever either. I'll measure the two coils today. One is supposed to have 0.3 Ohms, the other 28 Ohms.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Kioti uses two different solenoids and designs and it would be worthwhile to clarify exactly which you have as they operate completely differently.

This is a photo showing the two types. On the photo on the right with the gold solenoid, all linkages are internal.
On the photo on the left, which sounds like what you have, the linkage is external.

My Kioti knowledge is a little stale so plse bear with me.
.
On one solenoid, I think the gold one, the solenoid is powered through a 10 second timer which starts counting when you turn the key switch off. In other words it takes power to stop the engine.

On the other design, there are two internal coils within the housing. A pull in coil and a hold coil. The pull in coil works when the key is in start as it will overheat if powered too long. The hold coil is powered when the key switch is on and it is a low power coil that can stay powered up for as long as the tractor is running.

If your solenoid has external linkage connecting it to the injection pump, you should be able to move the linkage manually and also see it move when cranking the engine.

With no power to either pull the solenoid using the high power internal coil, or power to hold the coil pulled in, the engine gets no fuel.

ritcheyvs has provided a very good description of the one type of solenoid.

My Kioti WSM has the wiring diagram for the other type.

I do think you should be able to manually move the linkage with the key on and see if the linkage stays where you pulled it and allows the engine to start.
If that happens, then we can focus on why the "pull in," circuit is not working.

Dave M7040

Actually, both of these photos show the new type of stop solenoid that must be powered (hold coil) for the engine to start or run. The photo on the left is just a "cut away" to show the internal mechanism. The photo on the right (gold) is an even newer (but similar) version of the new stop solenoid. I don't have a photo of the original old (external) stop solenoid but this parts diagram (zoom in) shows how the old external solenoid operates the manual stop lever when power is applied from a timer relay after the key is switched off.

I'm reasonably sure all US 45hp Dadeong engines after 2006 used one of the newer (powered to run) SS versions.

 

[gsholz]

Well, I measured the coil resistances in the stop solenoid. One was 0.4 Ohm, the other 14 Ohm. Fuses and relays are fine and voltages on the solenoid seem good too. I get steady voltage on the hold coil and a pulse on the pull coil. It happens too fast for the voltmeter to get a stable reading though.

It looks like the solenoid is frozen internally. I'll order a replacement, believe the most recent part number is E6820-60011.

 

[ritcheyvs]

Recommend you unbolt the SS and visually confirm if it retracts then the key is turned to ON. Then see if you can compress the plunger manually. There was one case reported here where the SS filled with oil which locked the SS in the extended position, a possibility.

 

[thepumpguysc]

Just REMOVE IT from the engine.. its only 2 bolts.. & takes 5 minutes..
Seeing u have the 3 wire sol. it doesn't need a body ground.. Just push on the rod alittle while turning the key to start, IT SHOULD SLAM SHUT & hold there..
The tractor will probably start so you'll have to reach in the hole & push the rack to shut it down..

 

[ritcheyvs]

Just REMOVE IT from the engine.. its only 2 bolts.. & takes 5 minutes..
Seeing u have the 3 wire sol. it doesn't need a body ground.. Just push on the rod alittle while turning the key to start, IT SHOULD SLAM SHUT & hold there....

Actually, the SS plunger should retract (vigorously) as soon as the key is turned to ON; you don't even need to turn the key to crank the position.

...The tractor will probably start so you'll have to reach in the hole & push the rack to shut it down..

If the engine starts with the SS removed it proves the SS (or the circuits that power it) is the problem. If you are squeamish about sticking a finger in the SS hole, briefly slide the SS back in place (over the studs) and that will stop the engine. Or if you have a manual stop lever, use that.

I would really like to know: It looks like the "gold" SS (E6850-60011, shown in post #4 photo on right) is an upgrade to the one shown in the photo on the left (E5850-60011). This makes me wonder if the solenoid design was modified to reduce the stress on the injection pump gears (control sleeves) and if that is the reason these gears don't break in tractors newer than the 2008 build year???? This would be good to know. If so, all of us with 2005-2008 models should upgrade the new SS design. Perhaps one of the smart TBN dealers (MIE?) can comment?

 

[grsthegreat]

remember to check the fuses also. i had this issue with mine, and i replaced the start solenoid and the relay....was snowing didnt want to mess with it. it works now and has for past 3 years. one thing on mine, the stat solonoid relay was not the one listed in repair manual, but the other one. some models arnt wired correctly is what my dealer warmed me.

 

[gsholz]

Time for an update. Finally figured it out.

I ordered a new stop solenoid because I could measure the hold voltage and a blip of pull spike voltage (hard to see on a slow digital voltmeter) and the coil resistances seemed in the ball park. I plugged in the new solenoid and to my dismay it would not retract but hold when pushed in. So my problem really was in the supply. I measured both relays on the bench - they seemed perfect. Coils intact and switching appropriately. Fuses were all fine.

Out of frustration I replaced the relays anyway. The tractor started. It turns out, the left relay when looked from front had some strange current limiting failure. It would show full continuity when on but apparently would not carry sufficient amps to activate the pull coil. I have never seen that before.

Anyway, you guys were correct. It was the (left) relay after all. Thanks for all the help.

 

[xcgreene]

Time for an update. Finally figured it out.

I ordered a new stop solenoid because I could measure the hold voltage and a blip of pull spike voltage (hard to see on a slow digital voltmeter) and the coil resistances seemed in the ball park. I plugged in the new solenoid and to my dismay it would not retract but hold when pushed in. So my problem really was in the supply. I measured both relays on the bench - they seemed perfect. Coils intact and switching appropriately. Fuses were all fine.

Out of frustration I replaced the relays anyway. The tractor started. It turns out, the left relay when looked from front had some strange current limiting failure. It would show full continuity when on but apparently would not carry sufficient amps to activate the pull coil. I have never seen that before.

Anyway, you guys were correct. It was the (left) relay after all. Thanks for all the help.

Thanks for the update, glad you got it all worked out before winter. Always good to have some closure on threads like this.