2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question.

   / 2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question. #1  

Dave Pic

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JD 5203
Just purchased a 2605H Massey, switching from a JD 5203. Added the third valve for the operation of a grapple. Dealer installed, MF product, I think. The third valve is on the cross tube behind the loader, and is totally unprotected! STUPID doesn't even come close to the correct word. Is there some type of cover at least that I can get to put over this thing? I don't have a pic of it yet, but I can get one if that helps. I mean, who in their right mind would put the valve there? One stick or branch and its game over. Also the grille guard on the MF compared to the JD is laughable. I mean come on, one cross tube that sits below the grille? Again, has anyone that has actually worked a tractor designed this stuff, or is it some wonder kid that likes to draw on their computer?
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   / 2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question. #2  
I think you are prematurely concerned. The terminology is usually "third function" not 'third valve.' The idea is there are already two functions in use with all loaders (e.g. up/down of the loader frame and dump/curl of the bucket both covered by the loader valve.) So adding a third function is "something else up there" namely the open/close of jaws of some tool like a grapple or 4-in-1 bucket clamshell, etc. This will necessitate an extra set of hydraulic lines and connectors on that crossmember behind the bucket. That is NOT where the valve goes and you are just in a misunderstanding of some sort. The "third function" valve can be one of two places. One is to just use an existing remote hydraulic port on the rear of your tractor if you have a spare there (and the control lever associated with that remote & valve already there by the seat of the tractor) OR the very popular mounting of an auxiliary control on the joystick often electrically connected to the third function valve. That third function valve is likely then to be mounted alongside your loader valve but certainly not up front on the loader cross member.
No, don't put a cover over anything up on the cross member. If the dealer/installer is about to install something besides lines and quick disconnects on the crossmember STOP HIM !!!
 
   / 2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question.
  • Thread Starter
#3  
I think you are prematurely concerned. The terminology is usually "third function" not 'third valve.' The idea is there are already two functions in use with all loaders (e.g. up/down of the loader frame and dump/curl of the bucket both covered by the loader valve.) So adding a third function is "something else up there" namely the open/close of jaws of some tool like a grapple or 4-in-1 bucket clamshell, etc. This will necessitate an extra set of hydraulic lines and connectors on that crossmember behind the bucket. That is NOT where the valve goes and you are just in a misunderstanding of some sort. The "third function" valve can be one of two places. One is to just use an existing remote hydraulic port on the rear of your tractor if you have a spare there (and the control lever associated with that remote & valve already there by the seat of the tractor) OR the very popular mounting of an auxiliary control on the joystick often electrically connected to the third function valve. That third function valve is likely then to be mounted alongside your loader valve but certainly not up front on the loader cross member.
No, don't put a cover over anything up on the cross member. If the dealer/installer is about to install something besides lines and quick disconnects on the crossmember STOP HIM !!!
I think you are prematurely concerned. The terminology is usually "third function" not 'third valve.' The idea is there are already two functions in use with all loaders (e.g. up/down of the loader frame and dump/curl of the bucket both covered by the loader valve.) So adding a third function is "something else up there" namely the open/close of jaws of some tool like a grapple or 4-in-1 bucket clamshell, etc. This will necessitate an extra set of hydraulic lines and connectors on that crossmember behind the bucket. That is NOT where the valve goes and you are just in a misunderstanding of some sort. The "third function" valve can be one of two places. One is to just use an existing remote hydraulic port on the rear of your tractor if you have a spare there (and the control lever associated with that remote & valve already there by the seat of the tractor) OR the very popular mounting of an auxiliary control on the joystick often electrically connected to the third function valve. That third function valve is likely then to be mounted alongside your loader valve but certainly not up front on the loader cross member.
No, don't put a cover over anything up on the cross member. If the dealer/installer is about to install something besides lines and quick disconnects on the crossmember STOP HIM !!!
I just added a bunch of pics. I think that you'll see what Im trying to explain.
 
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   / 2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question. #4  
I believe you should indeed be unhappy with that package. I must assume they installed it, then delivered the tractor, and you had no idea this is what they intended? I think you need to discuss this with the dealer, and have that redone correctly. As stated earlier, the valve should not be out there on the loader but back on the tractor somewhere in a much more protected spot. Hopefully it won't become a hassle to get that accomplished and they won't try to bill you for the changes.
 
   / 2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question. #5  
OMG ! The pictures sure do clarify. I initially agree with Harry in KY. I am astounded that it was installed that way ! I'd almost call it a nice looking job of a stupid installation. I can see that the 3rd function valve is an electrically controlled one so they could locate it darn near anywhere but ... Holy Cow! You might start by gingerly inquiring whether the dealer had advice to install the valve there by AGCO or where the idea came from.

On further study, the one (only?) nice thing about it is that 3rd function gadgets usually have an awkward side issue in that the hydraulic hoses from the quick disconnects (mounted on the loader frame cross bar) flap around , can even get crushed if not restrained, and yet have to have play in them to allow full motion of the bucket/grapple. I deal with that on an older 2011 MF2660 and DL250 loader using bungy cords to provide relief to those flapping hoses which is admittedly crude but I think many people do that. As your pictures show the hoses are well secured and all the "bucket rotation" curl/dump is absorbed hose-wise in the U-shaped loop sections of hose between the valve and the bracket for the quick disconnects for the hoses now seen on the round torsion tube connector between left and right parts of the skid-steer compatibility adapter. They are even routed through a welded red-painted welded hoop on the torsion tube.

Wow, this plot is thickening fast. That valve has 6 hoses directly connected to it. You MAY have one of the latest things out which involves extra valving to split flow and allow 2 things to be done at once from an open center hydraulic system. [Normally open center hydraulics are "one track mind" hydraulics where only ONE thing can be driven at a time by fluid under pressure dictated by the operator. For example raising the loader frame while also curling the bucket.] Typically gravity is used as much as possible to fool the user into thinking he is doing two things at once with the joy stick but one of the two is driven by gravity, not fluid pressure. MF new literature implies they have added flow splitters somewhere to address that issue.

I must say I have to put on hold criticism of the installation after seeing those pictures. The welded hoops for controlling hose positions make me think this is factory OEM configuration rather than lone ranger dealer mistakes. I still say [as you expressed really well in the initial post ..."Who in their right mind..." ] that the 3rd function valve is terribly exposed to all sorts of thorn bushes, tree limbs, posts you run over, errant debris, etc. Note also that with this 'modern' loader they have gone to great pains to run simple hoses inside the loader frame (!) and then they do something like this. By the way I think the loader being an "inside the frame hose route" type loader is closely related to this higher risk valve installation. MF is probably avoiding running hoses on the outside of the frame at almost all costs. Wow all over again.

I am wondering now if the best solution is a sheet metal protection shroud over the valve ? Reminds me of 4WD trucks using a shroud over their transfer case so they can label the thing "off-road." If so , Massey should be providing it, not customers buying tractors.

You really should get input from others who own and have first hand familiarity with joystick-mounted 3rd function controls for grapples -- which I do not have. And probably from the MF regional service rep who is ALWAYS a good person to know. It does not need to be an adversarial relationship bringing the regional service rep into discussions even if the dealer feels that way.
 
   / 2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question.
  • Thread Starter
#6  
OMG ! The pictures sure do clarify. I initially agree with Harry in KY. I am astounded that it was installed that way ! I'd almost call it a nice looking job of a stupid installation. I can see that the 3rd function valve is an electrically controlled one so they could locate it darn near anywhere but ... Holy Cow! You might start by gingerly inquiring whether the dealer had advice to install the valve there by AGCO or where the idea came from.

On further study, the one (only?) nice thing about it is that 3rd function gadgets usually have an awkward side issue in that the hydraulic hoses from the quick disconnects (mounted on the loader frame cross bar) flap around , can even get crushed if not restrained, and yet have to have play in them to allow full motion of the bucket/grapple. I deal with that on an older 2011 MF2660 and DL250 loader using bungy cords to provide relief to those flapping hoses which is admittedly crude but I think many people do that. As your pictures show the hoses are well secured and all the "bucket rotation" curl/dump is absorbed hose-wise in the U-shaped loop sections of hose between the valve and the bracket for the quick disconnects for the hoses now seen on the round torsion tube connector between left and right parts of the skid-steer compatibility adapter. They are even routed through a welded red-painted welded hoop on the torsion tube.

Wow, this plot is thickening fast. That valve has 6 hoses directly connected to it. You MAY have one of the latest things out which involves extra valving to split flow and allow 2 things to be done at once from an open center hydraulic system. [Normally open center hydraulics are "one track mind" hydraulics where only ONE thing can be driven at a time by fluid under pressure dictated by the operator. For example raising the loader frame while also curling the bucket.] Typically gravity is used as much as possible to fool the user into thinking he is doing two things at once with the joy stick but one of the two is driven by gravity, not fluid pressure. MF new literature implies they have added flow splitters somewhere to address that issue.

I must say I have to put on hold criticism of the installation after seeing those pictures. The welded hoops for controlling hose positions make me think this is factory OEM configuration rather than lone ranger dealer mistakes. I still say [as you expressed really well in the initial post ..."Who in their right mind..." ] that the 3rd function valve is terribly exposed to all sorts of thorn bushes, tree limbs, posts you run over, errant debris, etc. Note also that with this 'modern' loader they have gone to great pains to run simple hoses inside the loader frame (!) and then they do something like this. By the way I think the loader being an "inside the frame hose route" type loader is closely related to this higher risk valve installation. MF is probably avoiding running hoses on the outside of the frame at almost all costs. Wow all over again.

I am wondering now if the best solution is a sheet metal protection shroud over the valve ? Reminds me of 4WD trucks using a shroud over their transfer case so they can label the thing "off-road." If so , Massey should be providing it, not customers buying tractors.

You really should get input from others who own and have first hand familiarity with joystick-mounted 3rd function controls for grapples -- which I do not have. And probably from the MF regional service rep who is ALWAYS a good person to know. It does not need to be an adversarial relationship bringing the regional service rep into discussions even if the dealer feels that way.
Thanks for the feedback. I'm thinking of making some type of bracket that I can use to cover the "valve body" and provide some type of protection. It's actually kinda disappointing. I spent a lot of money on this machine, and this is the best that Agco can come up with? Sad! Even the delivery guy, when he dropped off the tractor made mention of how exposed it is, and said that they (the dealership) was looking to make some type of cover for it. Its just a pain in the ass type of situation, but it needs to be addressed. I won't work the grapple, or even the bucket in brush until its fixed. My next ***** is the foolish "brush guard" if thats what you want to call it. What a friggin joke that is. Another fix on my end. Maybe I should learn who the Agco rep is and see who is behind the design of these things.
Just a quick mention of the hose routing. Yes it is inside the frame, however, they have a plastic guard that protects against abrasion on the top, and two sides, but not the bottom. Guess where the hoses rub? Yup, the bottom! They dont even touch the top. Good thing I've got all winter!
 
   / 2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question. #7  
If they sold this to you as a 3rd function I'd be unhappy. Because that is a diverter.

Just to confirm.....how do you activate it. Is it pushing a button ONLY. Or is it pushing a button while ALSO moving the joystick.

I didn't think any factor had a diverter setup.

Regarding the grill guard....and mounting....tractors are meant to be machines in the woods. Just look at all the unprotected stuff on the underside too.

As bad as that looks....and I agree it could be located better.....I'd bet it's not the most vulnerable place on the tractor and not the first place you will have issues with
 
   / 2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question.
  • Thread Starter
#8  
If they sold this to you as a 3rd function I'd be unhappy. Because that is a diverter.

Just to confirm.....how do you activate it. Is it pushing a button ONLY. Or is it pushing a button while ALSO moving the joystick.

I didn't think any factor had a diverter setup.

Regarding the grill guard....and mounting....tractors are meant to be machines in the woods. Just look at all the unprotected stuff on the underside too.

As bad as that looks....and I agree it could be located better.....I'd bet it's not the most vulnerable place on the tractor and not the first place you will have issues with
When you hold in the button on the joystick, and move it left of right, it makes the grapple open or close. As soon as you let go of the button, it reverts to the normal curl/dump mode. It seems to be the factory setup, from what I can tell.
 
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   / 2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question. #9  
So it's a diverter, and not "full third function". I say SO WHAT? My opinion, this a better option. You operate the grapple with the joystick, same as the the other functions. You control the speed of the action. Solenoid valves are either on or off, no "in between". Full flow or no flow. Yes, there are the hydraulics ex spurts out there who who will disagree, but who cares. You're the one using it. I've installed a few grapples for people and this is the option I chose. I have had no complaints.

Where they put the thing is another matter. I would never have done that, and if I paid someone to do it for me I would never accept that. A cover is not the solution.
 
   / 2605H xtra (third) hydraulics function question. #10  
The point wasn't to start a diverter vs 3rd debate.

I have a diverter....and prefer it for the reason you mention.

My concern is IF it was sold as a true third function....that isn't what they delivered.

And to my knowledge...I don't know of a manufacture that offer a diverter as a factory kit. Only 3rd function kits.

So if the OP paid OEM price for a 3rd function kit....then received an aftermarket diverter....but paid the price of an OEM 3rd... That seems a bit shady by the dealer. Compounded by the poor placement during installation.

Just giving an other angle for recourse. The dealer can simply say that's where the mfg specs them, or that's what the instructions say, or that's where we always put them...etc. OP is up the creek without a paddle.

But if they swindled him and charged a premium price for an OEM 3rd....and the dealer cashed in by putting a cheaper 3rd party diverter on.....well now you have a legitimate case for having them make it right on their dime
 

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