4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12

   / 4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12 #1  

AdamCrozier

New member
Joined
May 23, 2004
Messages
7
I have often wondered why such a push by dealers to push customers into a 4410 over the 4310. If one were to spec the entire machine out, aside from the injectors, we would see that they can do the identical work. Deere speeds up the engine RPM and calls it a different tractor, and $1200 more for really nothing practical...
This brings me to my next point of reference. I understand the use of a hydro in situtations when the CUT is going to primarily mow or some other long run task. But the 12/12 has a distinct advantage in several areas including power, longevity, maintenance, noice, and pirce. Not to mention less computer parts to make it function.
I feel that if anyone is considering buying a mid frame compact the best value lies in the 4310, 420 FEL and a pull type grooming mower. I do not wish offend anyone who has purchased otherwise, and I do understand the purpose of other options, especially the hydro. However the best value is as previously stated. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
   / 4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12 #2  
You make good points but "best value" starts with how the tractor will be used and is not necessarily the lowest cost version.

Yes the 12/12 has less power loss through the transmission, has a lower cost and the noise is different but I'm not sure it is less. However, I'm not sure the 12/12 has a distinct advantage for longevity or maintenance. The hydros have a great longevity record and I have not experienced any maintenance issues.

I think what your email points out is that you have found the "best value" for you. With the work I do, I find the hydro to be the best value for me. For example, I find it most efficient when mowing over some varying terrain (some areas smooth, with a few bumpy areas) to be able to continuously vary my ground speed while maintaining PTO RPM. You can't do that with a 12/12. If I had the 12/12 I would need to select a gear that provided either the lowest speed or reduce the throttle (and the PTO speed) when I came to the rough spots.

As far as computer parts, the 12/12 is electronically controlled. I'm not sure how many fewer computer parts are on the epower reverser vs the hydro but I doubt, from a reliability standpoint, that the difference is significant.

Good luck with your selection. I'm sure it will serve you well.

Jeff
 
   / 4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12 #3  
best value lies in the 4310, 420 FEL and a pull type grooming mower.

You sound like you're trying to sell this setup and can't find any takers. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
One of my main criteria in purchasing anything "major" is that the asset be liquid, i.e. very desirable and easy to sell at a fair price when I decide to get rid of it. Because of this eHydro was a mandatory requirement. I watched the used market for a few months prior to my purchase and the eHydro units were snapped up almost immediately at prices that were not a lot less than buying new. The geared models languished for a long time at prices that were (IMO) less than what they were worth. In any case I'm happy Deere gives us all a choice.
 
   / 4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12 #4  
Wow. Not sure my opinion could be more different. Sure, it's just my opinion, but I do try to avoid blanket statements like "However the best value is as previously stated." While I may try to give my reasons for what I purchased to someone who asks, I fully accept that while what I purchased may have been the best value for me, it is not possible to lay down a definitive statement saying that "this is the best value".

Not sure where you got your information that "Deere speeds up the engine RPM and calls it a different tractor", but the specs for the two engines are different AND all horsepower ratings are given at the same engine speed of 2600 RPM. The 4310 has a 92 cubic inch engine and the 4410 has a 101 cubic inch engine, thus the HP difference, not from increasing the RPMs.

As for HST vs 12/12, my opinion is exactly the opposite. I feel that long, uninterrupted movements such as mowing lends itself much better to the 12/12. I also think that 12/12 may be a better choice for serious ground engagement, such as plowing several acres. However, the HST stands above the 12/12 where repeated back and forth movement is required, such as loader work. This was going to comprise a lot of my use for a CUT so I never looked at anything other than HST. Try creeping up to the side of a brand new pickup to drop a load of gravel in the bed with a 12/12, especially if you're going slightly down hill. Sure you can do it by with one foot on the clutch and one on the brake, but I feel a lot more comfortable creeping up with my HST that stops when I lift my foot. I also feel more secure working around structures knowing that if the pile of horse manure I just stepped in causes my foot to slip off the pedal, the tractor will stop instead of plowing through the side of the barn.

As for "But the 12/12 has a distinct advantage in several areas including power, longevity, maintenance, noice, and pirce", I'll give my opinion on each.

Power: You're right. The HST does cost 2-3 PTO hp. But, it is enough power for all the pto powered implements I use plus the HST will still spin the tires before the power bleeds off when pulling, pushing, etc.

Maintenance: Again, I'll give you this one. The HST does require that you change the fluid and filter at 50 hours and then every 200 hours after that. However, this may be less trouble than replacing a clutch and pressure plate.

Noise: The only time I've noticed noise is when you let up on the pedal and the tranny is winding down. In use, I don't notice any noise louder than the diesel motor noise.

Price: Yup, the HST costs more initially, but so did the automatic trans in my pickup when I purchased it. If you want it, you pay for it.

Longevity: Saved this one for last. Maybe some actual tractor mechanics or dealers can chime in here with MTBF for each tranny, but my experience does not lead me to the same conclusion. For 5 years in the early 70s, I worked for a city water dept. I observed the use and maintenance of our two backhoes for the first two years and was an operator for the last 3. They were both IH hoes. One with a gear shuttle and the other HST. The HST was on the "big" tractor with the extend-a-hoe so it saw the most use. In the 5 years I was there, we NEVER had any trouble with the HST on that tractor. And these were machines that saw hours of use at least 5 days a week. Granted, we never had any trouble with the gear/shuttle tranny either, but I would guess that these tractors saw more use in one year than the average CUT would in 20.

Again, everything above is just my opinion based on my needs, uses and experience (with more than just CUTS).

Hoss
 
   / 4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12 #5  
I agree with the pricing logic. I was going to get a 420 FEL but the dealer cut me a heck of a deal on the 430 because it was already on the tractor. I'm glad I have the 430.

GET HYDRO- even if all you are doing is mowing. When you run low on power in the thick stuff ( and you will), you just let up a bit on the pedal, no clutching. I would be annoyed if I had a 12/12 to do the task I do with my 4310. And I'm not trying to subvert anyone with a 12/12. I have a 12/12 too, albeit on a 5420 that has plenty O' power and doesn't need to be clutched all the time while mowing...Kyle
 
   / 4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12 #6  
I never really had to clutch to mow thick stuff on the 9x3 4300. It was syncronized anyway so no big deal. You guys are just spoiled with the easy use of the hydro! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / 4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12
  • Thread Starter
#7  
I have in the past owned a 4600 hydro. I now own a 4510 12/12. There is a significant difference in power and noise. I also mow with an 84 pull type Land Pride mower. I can shift down or up to respond to conditions with out ever sacraficing motion or cut quality.
To attest to the life of the transmissions I can only say this. This last winter there were four mid frame compacts 4300, 4400, and two 4310s in our shop with the hour meters reading between 980 hrs and 1200hrs and all hydros. All needed new pumps in the transmission. This is not a statistical anomoly, it is a fact. I can only state what I see every day and try to share the info.
I do believe that in most mowing conditions the hydro would be more convienent and provide a very long life. My statements are made as a reflection on dealers failing to qualify what the customers true needs and abilities are.
I find that MOST people are willing to save the extra money after a demo on both models.
 
   / 4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12 #8  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have often wondered why such a push by dealers to push customers into a 4410 over the 4310. If one were to spec the entire machine out, aside from the injectors, we would see that they can do the identical work. Deere speeds up the engine RPM and calls it a different tractor, and $1200 more for really nothing practical...
This brings me to my next point of reference. I understand the use of a hydro in situtations when the CUT is going to primarily mow or some other long run task. But the 12/12 has a distinct advantage in several areas including power, longevity, maintenance, noice, and pirce. Not to mention less computer parts to make it function.
I feel that if anyone is considering buying a mid frame compact the best value lies in the 4310, 420 FEL and a pull type grooming mower. I do not wish offend anyone who has purchased otherwise, and I do understand the purpose of other options, especially the hydro. However the best value is as previously stated. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif )</font>

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Yes I do work for a dealer )</font>

Welcome to TBN!

You will find many discussions about the very topics you raise if you search back through the threads.

One thing you will discover is that for the most part, TBN folk dig in and find out what really is, and don't rely completely on information provided by the dealerships. Its not that dealers are bad, but that with so many products, it is hard to fully knoe all of them completely. Case in point are your own statements about 4310 vs. 4410 as well as applications of the HST vs. Reverser.

You also point out that the HST is a lot louder, but your experience is on the 4610. It seems there are issues with them, and a PIP to address it. That isn't the case in the midchassis.

Don't get me wrong, we value input from folks in the dealership and from the manufacturer.

Just be sure your facts are straight, cause we can be a little cantankerous when they ain't!

I hope you have fun around here...
 
   / 4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12 #9  
Oh Come on Mike - We're not cantankerous... We just enjoy punching holes in "definitive statements of opinion". /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Regarding the original post - I've never personally experienced this "push" from any dealer towards the 4410. As a statement of "fact" it was my experience while shopping at 2 of 3 JD dealers that they talked me down from the 4410, since it wouldn't run any implement that the 4310 could. The 3rd dealer didn't push me towards it, in fact he never mentioned it as an alternative option when he found out I was shopping the 4310.

Personally I see a lot of knocks on the site against Deere and Kubota dealers - either saying they are too snobbish or just plain rude. Maybe it's so in many areas - but of the three I visited I was impressed by every one of them - no pressure, very friendly, and knew their line-up. I'm beginning to think the "Bad Deere and Kubota Dealer" thing is becoming Urban Legend and gets repeated at every opportunity whether it’s been 1st hand experience or not.
 
   / 4310 vs 4410 Hydro vs 12/12 #10  
I can put up with opinions a whole lot more than an "expert" with misinformation.....
 

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