444c Starter Wont Engage

[cjohnsen]

Ive got a 86' 444c that hasnt been started in 10 years that im trying to resurrect. When it was parked there obviously it worked and it hasnt been touched since. I was told that the reason it stopped being used was a bad starter. I happened to have a starter laying around for it so i threw it in. Still it wont turn over. When i press the starter button i hear a click/thump kind of sound (im guessing from a solenoid) in the engine compartment and thats it. With 2 fresh batteries it will pull the voltage down from 12 to 10 so theres some power trying to go somewhere. I put jumper cables on it for a little extra juice and when i press the starter on the loader i can hear the engine load down a little from the jumping vehical. So somethings happening but it isnt turning over.

The engine isnt sized i can turn it over by hand. Heres some pictures of what ive got:

Heres the starter:


All the power goes into the top post of the solenoid. The 2 biggest wires are from the batteries. Im guessing the medium sized is from the alternator. Other than that im not sure. The bottom post is just the power line from solenoid to starter motor:


Theres a small post on the left and im guessing its ground? Ive got one wire going to it and then it does to the body of the starter motor (its the blue wire). You can see a picture of it in the last picture.

Heres what im guessing is a relay for the starter. Its bolted to the engine compartment wall behind the starter:


So heres my question. What energizes the solenoid and tells it to start the motor. The way im seeing it theres nothing that actually tells the starter motor to start. I put the wires on exactly how they came off so as far as I know this is how everything was hooked up when the machine ran. The new starter has 2 terminals to the right of top post. Could one of these be the signal input to start?


Heres the old starter for reference

 

[beenthere]

:welcome: to TBN

First, I don't "know" what the problem is, and can't see that any wires are connected wrong.

What I can see are a number of connections that don't appear to have been cleaned up lately for good contact.

So, if it were me and given the time sitting of 10 years, I would go through all of the connections and shine them up good.

Your take may be different,.. others may spot a problem from the pics and will give you a clue for a fix.

Looks like a fun project to get it running....

 

[flyerdan]

It makes it difficult with them using all red for the battery cables; there is a red cable ganged with a ground strap on one of the mounting bolts in the top photo along with four red cables ganged to the top of the solenoid. What activates the starter should be the blue wire that runs along the starter and goes up to the top left of the solenoid, which pulls the plunger back kicking out the bendix and supplying power through the big copper strap to the starter motor.
Was the replacement starter a new rebuild or unknown? A worn solenoid will bench test fine, but not work with a flywheel gear to engage. I had that with a forklift recently, the square head copper bolts on the solenoid cap had eroded to where they wouldn't make contact with the plunger. Popping them out and turning them 180 degrees so the new sections were in the contact area solved it.

 

[cjohnsen]

Thanks for the comments so far. The starter is a new rebuild from John Deere. It is however probably 10+ years old. Never used. Yes every wire is red in there. The red wire you see next to the ground strap is the ground for one of the batteries. If the blue wire is the one that activates the starter I guess my next step is get a friend to try and start the machine and I'll sit there with a voltage meter and see if it's getting power. If not I'll trace the wire connected to the blue wire back to the starter relay and see if it's got power there.

It's a mess with all the wires in there. Half look stock and the other half don't so I'm trying to sort it all out. I do however know for a fact that the machine ran perfectly fine for years with all of that wiring exactly how it is. So I need need to find out what's broken and why the starter isn't getting the signal to activate

 

[Tx Jim]

I'm not nearly as experienced with ind tractors as ag tractors but the relay in your photo gets it's engagement electricity from ign switch then when energized sends electricity to starter solenoid via the "S" post encircled in blue on yellow or black starter. I see no wire attached to "S" post on black starter. Yellow starter solenoid "S" post appears to have wire removed but connector eyelet still attached. Common problem with relay in photo is loss of ground connection. Is the battery ground cable attached to starter mounting bolt?

 

[cjohnsen]

Heres an update:

The wire that was on the "s" post on the yellow starter that has the eylet still atached is now on the same post on the black starter. I can try and get a better picture of it but it is connected to the blue wire. It is in the same spot on the black starter as the yellow starter its just hard to see from the pictures. I crimped a new eylet onto the wire as it broke off on the yellow starter when i was removing it.

The battery ground cable is attached directly to the starter mounting bolt.

So i tested some today and heres what i found.With 2 known good charged batteries. 12.6 volts

-The relay mounted on the firewall seems to be functioning proporly (i can hear it when i have someone hit the start button) and when the starter button is pressed the voltage going in is the same as the voltage going out 12.6 in and 12.6 out

-The wire that connects to the blue wire on the "s" post (by the way its not labeled "s" but im assuming thats what it is) gets 12.6 volts when the starter button is depressed.

-When the starter button is pressed the big copper strap that goes into the starter motor only receives .5 volts.

So im thinking my problem has to do with the solenoid on the starter? Not letting enough power go through it to engage the starter motor. What are the chances of this being the issue with this starter when the old starter was displaying the exact same symptoms


BTW those posts on the black starter that have nothing hooked up to them arnt on the yellow starter so i wasnt sure if i should hook anything up to them

 

[Tx Jim]

Heres an update:


-When the starter button is pressed the big copper strap that goes into the starter motor only receives .5 volts.

So im thinking my problem has to do with the solenoid on the starter? Not letting enough power go through it to engage the starter motor. What are the chances of this being the issue with this starter when the old starter was displaying the exact same symptoms

I think you're correct.

 

[cjohnsen]

Heres 2 more pictures. As you can see ive got the wire from the relay right next to the blue wire but it doesnt look like it was meant to have another wire in there:


Heres a closer up on the 2 posts that wearnt on the old starter (im not sure if they were intended to be "s" posts or not):


Should i try and put the wire ive got connected on one of the two posts from the second pciture and see what happenes or should i invest in another starter and hope it fixes my problem. Since im getting some voltage (even if its only .5V) at the post with the strap to the starter motor it makes me want to say just buy another starter

 

[cjohnsen]

I got it to turn over...

I want to thank everyone who helped out. Turns out i needed to put the wire from the relay on the posts on the right of the solenoid. It confused me because the old starter didnt have those and the wire from the relay was on the same post as the blue wire. One simple wire caused a week of headaches. Next is injectors, every filter on the machine, fuel system flush, oil change, hydraulic oil change. If i can ever get it running ill post back up with a video

Thanks again i wouldnt have thought to move the wires around if it wasnt for other peoples insight

 

[beenthere]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: