ABB ACS 400 VFD pump drive 5 hp controlled with a across the line start 10 hp. pumps

[om21braz]

You may try getting a factory rep onsite and getting them to give you suggestions of your options. You'll probably get some good info to use whether you buy anything or not.

 

[Valveman]

I cannot reply about one device over the other for reliability as a pump control as I'm not familiar with that use. What I can say is that when we have used Yaskawa VFD's in an industrial environment as an OEM machine manufacturer, working anywhere from 8 hours per day five days a week up to 24/7/365 use - it's uncommon to have any problems from the unit for at least 10 years. And when it breaks - don't repair, replace it when time is money.

10 years is probably about right for an average. But I talk to people everyday who have replaced four VFD's in 5 years, have problems with harmonics, vibration, bearing currents, or just the technical nature of the device. And yes there is no point to try and repair a VFD. They probably don't even make parts for anything that is 5-10 years old, as they are always re-designing them, trying to solve some of the inherent problems. The need to replace them on a regular basis is a major consideration in the design of a VFD. It keeps the old cash flow going for the manufacturers and installers. With across the line starters (no VFD), 20-30 years is a more common life span for pump systems. All the problems of a VFD would be worth it if they save enough energy. The problem is that VFD's do not save energy on these type pump systems. But they still try to make you think they do.

Good information, Thank you. I did download the manual as well. It's just I'm apprehensive about changing parameters with my limited experience (I might activate a launch sequence on some unknown secret missile base somewhere) be just my luck. But with our water associations irrigation system adding a amperage meter would be like trying to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic. We've got to kinda step back and see where we want to go with our system.

The simpler the controls of a pump system the more reliable the water supply, and the longer the equipment will last. If you are worried about "activating a launch sequence", your equipment is too complicated. It is just a pump system, not rocket science.

 

[Mendonsy]

10 years is probably about right for an average. But I talk to people everyday who have replaced four VFD's in 5 years, have problems with harmonics, vibration, bearing currents, or just the technical nature of the device. And yes there is no point to try and repair a VFD. They probably don't even make parts for anything that is 5-10 years old, as they are always re-designing them, trying to solve some of the inherent problems. The need to replace them on a regular basis is a major consideration in the design of a VFD. It keeps the old cash flow going for the manufacturers and installers. With across the line starters (no VFD), 20-30 years is a more common life span for pump systems. All the problems of a VFD would be worth it if they save enough energy. The problem is that VFD's do not save energy on these type pump systems. But they still try to make you think they do.




The simpler the controls of a pump system the more reliable the water supply, and the longer the equipment will last. If you are worried about "activating a launch sequence", your equipment is too complicated. It is just a pump system, not rocket science.

VFD drives don't usually save energy, but in many cases the electric companies will tack on a huge "demand charge" based on the peak usage. Across the line starters cause large current spikes that can jack up the electric bill significantly even though they actually draw slightly less power once they are running. The alternative is a "soft start" but those are usually less reliable and more expensive than a VFD.

 

[Valveman]

VFD drives don't usually save energy, but in many cases the electric companies will tack on a huge "demand charge" based on the peak usage. Across the line starters cause large current spikes that can jack up the electric bill significantly even though they actually draw slightly less power once they are running. The alternative is a "soft start" but those are usually less reliable and more expensive than a VFD.

Yeah but then you wouldn't have all the problems associated with VFD's. Auto transformer type soft starts are very reliable and long lasting, because they are mechanical, not electronic. And you only have high startup current when the pump starts. Which if you are not cycling the pump on/off, starts are not a problem. Reduced voltage soft starters are best for submersibles, as they cannot be started very slowly without causing bearing damage.

 

[Xfaxman]

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We have been replacing VFD's with Cycle Stop Valves or CSV's since 1993. The CSV makes it really reliable. Most people with a CSV never think about their water system again. They just open a faucet or turn on sprinklers, and the water comes out reliably.

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:thumbsup: on the CSV, there was one in the well along with an Inwell pressure tank here, when the well was put in back in 2005.

Had some problems with the tank in the casing, but not the valve: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ell-pump-monitor-post3224963.html#post3224963

When we ran the sprinklers on the new sod for two or three hours, the pump only had to start once.

 

[Valveman]

:thumbsup: on the CSV, there was one in the well along with an Inwell pressure tank here, when the well was put in back in 2005.

Had some problems with the tank in the casing, but not the valve: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ell-pump-monitor-post3224963.html#post3224963

When we ran the sprinklers on the new sod for two or three hours, the pump only had to start once.

Thanks. That was an interesting thread. Someone had shown me that recently, which is what got me started checking these forums to see if I could help.

I got a patent on the In Well tank back in 1993 (long expired now). I worked on it several years and was never happy enough with it to put one on the market. I did license it to the guy who made the ones like in that thread. I always believed that even with a CSV, a pressure tank needs to hold a minimum of 1 gallon of water. It would have to be 16' long to hold that much water, and it just wasn't pratical for shipping, expense, and other things. The main problem was because of the verticle installation, the bladder filled from the bottom up and drained from the top down. With a clear housing so you could see in, the bladder looked like a snake swallowing a gerbal. The rippling effect from top to bottom made it impossible to keep the bladder from failing, which I am sure was the problem with the one in that thread.

That little Pside-Kick kit was our answer to not having to put the tank and switch in the well. It can easily go in a crawlspace, closet, or in the little space above the water heater. I have seen people install them in valve boxes like that thread in many different configurations. That one was an excellent job. They work well this way as long as the valve box does not fill up with water. If the ground gets completly saturated during heavy rains or something, the pressure switch can still get wet.