At a loss, need opinions how to proceed

[Rolando]

I'm not sure what step I should take next. As I mentioned in another post, I was having problems with the mower deck not turning sufficiently fast to actually cut the grass, and the grapple was opening slower than it was closing. The dealer determined that my unit had the copper casings defect and they replaced the 3-in-1 pump (gear pump?). After my dealer kept the Toolcat in the shop for two full weeks, I was able to use it again yesterday.

It is working exactly the same as it was when they picked it up!!

The mower deck will work with the High-flow turned on, and with my place looking like a jungle after four weeks without mowing, I went ahead and mowed with the high-flow turned on. I don't know if that will damage anything, but at this point I don't care.

Apparently, my dealership is not only incapable of fixing my machine, they don't care enough, or are too incompetent, to check that the repair actually took care of the problem. I have already complained about the service department to the dealership manager.

I can't decide if it would be best to return to the service department, the dealership manager, or go directly to Bobcat and see what they have to say? At one point I was concerned about going over people's heads and causing resentment, but now I don't see how things could get worse.

I would appreciate getting opinions as to what I should do next.

Thanks,

 

[SkyPup]

Geez, this sounds like it is going from bad to worse as they have already struck out twice in a row.

I'd go down to their dealership and speak in person with both the salesman and the service manager. This should be 100% under warranty and repaired properly ASAP, no questions asked.

If that cannot be accomplished straightaway (which apparently it has not over the last six weeks), then I would certainly contact the regional manager and get him to take care of it for the incompetent dealership.....

 

[Bob999]

The dealer determined that my unit had the copper casings defect and they replaced the 3-in-1 pump (gear pump?).

It is working exactly the same as it was when they picked it up!!

The dealer diagnosis and reported action taken don't jibe to my way of thinking. I believe that the Toolcat has at least three hydraulic pumps--a variable displacement pump that provides motive power, and two gear pumps--one that powers the PTO circuit (which I understand you use for the mower and for the grapple function)--and one that provides lift and curl. I am uncertain how the high flow is provided--I can think of at least three possibilitiies--a second PTO pump; a two speed drive for a single PTO pump; or a bypass circuit that reduces the flow available when using "low flow".

In any event it sounds to me as if the problem is with the PTO circuit--since I understand this powers the mower and is also used for the grapple when it is installed.

I had understood--but no one has verified this--that the copper casings defect was associated with the variable volume pump. Also, while I am not specifically familiar with the Toolcat, Skid steers and the PowerTrac use a 3 pump set up that I described. In all applications I am familiar with there are actually three separate pumps mounted together and driven from the same shaft. However each of the three pumps can be replaced separately. Because of this I am suspicious about the description that all three pumps were replaced. The variable displacement pump is typically quite expensive ($1000++) while gear pumps are relatively less expensive (hundreds).

I would suggest that you contact the dealer and let him know the result of his work and ask for a further explanation and plan of action. If that is not satisfactory then contact Bobcat directly and describe the problem you are having and what your dealer did to try to fix it along with the results and ask for advice as how to proceed.

 

[dsb5610]

Rolando,

This has to be frustrating. If this were my unit I would ask the dealer to bring out the hydraulic testers so I could see the results. I see two different hydraulic testers in the service manual, one to test the hydraulic pump and one to test the front auxilliary hydraulics. There is a seperate test for each of the three sections of the pump; the auxilliary section, the work group section and the steering and cargo box section. There is a formula in the manual that you plug the results into. The high pressure flow must be at least 80% of the free flow results in each section. This appears to be a good way of isolating each section of the pump to determine if any are contributing to your symptoms.

If the pump checks out ok, I would next have them test (different tester) the GPM of the front auxilliary hydraulics as well as verify the main relief valve opens at 3045psi.

These tests should give enough data to determine what the next course of action should be.

Good luck,
dsb

 

[dsb5610]

The dealer diagnosis and reported action taken don't jibe to my way of thinking. I believe that the Toolcat has at least three hydraulic pumps--a variable displacement pump that provides motive power, and two gear pumps--one that powers the PTO circuit (which I understand you use for the mower and for the grapple function)--and one that provides lift and curl. I am uncertain how the high flow is provided--I can think of at least three possibilitiies--a second PTO pump; a two speed drive for a single PTO pump; or a bypass circuit that reduces the flow available when using "low flow".

In any event it sounds to me as if the problem is with the PTO circuit--since I understand this powers the mower and is also used for the grapple when it is installed.

I had understood--but no one has verified this--that the copper casings defect was associated with the variable volume pump. Also, while I am not specifically familiar with the Toolcat, Skid steers and the PowerTrac use a 3 pump set up that I described. In all applications I am familiar with there are actually three separate pumps mounted together and driven from the same shaft. However each of the three pumps can be replaced separately. Because of this I am suspicious about the description that all three pumps were replaced. The variable displacement pump is typically quite expensive ($1000++) while gear pumps are relatively less expensive (hundreds).

I would suggest that you contact the dealer and let him know the result of his work and ask for a further explanation and plan of action. If that is not satisfactory then contact Bobcat directly and describe the problem you are having and what your dealer did to try to fix it along with the results and ask for advice as how to proceed.

Bob999,

You've probably already figured this out but I am not a mechanic or mechanical engineer so if I don't have this all straight someone let me know.

My understanding is there is a three section hydraulic pump for auxilliary hydraulics, work group hydraulics (lift/tilt) and steering and cargo box hydraulics. The drive train is power by two axial piston pumps that are belt driven off the engine. These in turn feed the 2-speed motors.

dsb

 

[theoshin]

I spoke with my dealer about this issue as I also have a early production model "c".

Others have received new machines - have you approached this solution to your problem? Metal in the system is not good.

Why do you think it took 100 hours for this to show up?
With others did it not affect the drive motor/locomotion? Does the aux flow need to be used to have this problem show up? Which motor has the bad castings?

My family builds heavy concrete breakers which are 100% hydro driven. Has anyone found out which actual part is bad? I could have our engineer take a look.

My dealer basically blew me off when i mentioned this problem. Made me upset. Bobcat claims they do not know which machines got the bad castings - coming from a manufacturing company that sounds fishy.

Thx,
theodore

 

[Rolando]

What the service manager was telling was that there were three pumps in one pump unit and they replaced all three. Frankly, I don't think they were able to figure out what was wrong, so they replaced every pump.

I didn't have any aux hydraulic equipment for the first 50 hours or so. It was only after I moved into my new property that I got the mower deck and grapple and started using the aux hydraulics extensively. And I've never had any problem with movement or the lift and curl functions on the FEL, before or after they attempted the repairs. I'm not sure that my problem is with the defective casings. I didn't exhibit the problems others have mentioned, and replacing the pumps should have fixed the problem, at least temporarily, if it had been the casings problem. I have next to no mechanical knowledge, but just from reasoning it seems that something else is going on here.

Just some icing on the cake, for those of you following the drama. This is two days since I got the Toolcat back. I was checking the hydraulic level today and saw that there was non showing on the window, so I started adding. It took 1.5 gallons of fluid to bring it up to the proper level. Is it unreasonable of me to expect that the dealership would return the Toolcat with the hydraulic fluid tank filled?

Also, when I was talking to the service manager about the fact that the repairs had not fixed the problem, he was still trying to tell me that the mower needed high-flow to work properly. Beyond telling him that I had used the mower for several weeks without high-flow and it had worked fine, this time I actually dug out the mower manual and found that not only does it not say that high-flow is required, it actually says that ONLY standard flow should be used. It says that flow should not exceed 22 gpm (high-flow is 26 gpm).

There is a significant competence problem at my dealership, at least where Toolcats are concerned, but I think generally. When the service people don't find anything wrong with a unit that has been brought in because the customer says there's a problem, you don't return the unit to the customer without calling him first to talk about the fact that they couldn't see anything wrong. Then after the service department has made the repairs they thought were needed, they don't return the unit without first testing it to make sure they fixed the problem.

Maybe I'm just unreasonable.

 

[theoshin]

yes, you may have a different problem. that would be a good thing!

if the person you are speaking with does not know the high flow is NOT
recommended for the mower then he is an idiot. Running 26gpm through
that motor will shorten its life - it is not built for it - I wish it was as I would buy one. Hydro motors are built to a max range of flows.

You are getting pathetic service. Time to talk to those who can say yes - call Bobcat headquarters and demand to speak to someone up the chain. Bobcat should be embarrassed. If we serviced a machine and sent it back not working my father would be beyond enraged.

TS

 

[IslandTractor]

Any further news? I hope someone at BobCat gets in touch with your dealer. It is a real shame to have lost the better part of the summer work season trying to get this resolved.