ATF.. any EP qualities?

Soundguy · Apr 23, 2004

There is a discussion going on in another forum about using regular ATF fluid in the trannies of certain tractors. The jist of it was that the tractors ( grey units usually ) come over, and the importers overseas say that atf is fine in them.. Yet I have these following questions. The tractors in question use a single oil sump for the tranny ( either gear or hyd actuated shuttle ) hydraulics, and the rear final drives.

I know the atf will be a fine fluid for the tranny itself.. including wet clutches or wet brakes.. no question about it. Also.. atf should be fine for the hydraulics... same as power steering fluid.. still no problems. The last one rases a concern.. Final drives... I'm wondering if the ATF has any ep addatives specifically for final drive applications... I've yet to see ANY manufacturer make claims that their ATF is fine in final drives.. Another thing is the detergent factor and final drives.. lots of final drive oil as I understand it.. generally aren't designed to keep 'crud' in suspension as there is no filter for the final drive. Seems like atf would keep stuff circulating?

That brings up the regular universal transdraulic oils.. like UTF, NH m2c134d.. jd030.. hytran.. etc. These all claim to work in hydraulics, transmissions, and most importantly make the claim of having ep addatives for the final drives..

I know there are some oil experts in here... anyone care to comment on this.

My take on it so far.. as I have not seen proof to the contrary, is that ATF may not be the best thing for the tractors in question. In some cases.. the manuals even state a different oil.. and it is only the importer saying 'go ahead and use atf.. we do..'. My thinking is that it and pow/steer fluid is cheap.. so that's what they put in it to get it shipped out.

My 'reconditioned' yanmar came over with nice green water in the coolant tank.. clean looking.. brilliant green.. a SG test showed it to have the same SG of water.. for all I know it was food coloring..??

Comments / opinions../

Soundguy

JD4610 · Apr 23, 2004

I'm sure there are others more qualified than me to comment on the exact chemical properties of various fluids, but as a technician of 11 years at one of the worlds largest Ford dealerships I do get to see the actual use of fluids in various applications.

As far as ATF and it's EP content, remember that virtually all modern manual transmissions use ATF as their lubricant. These transmissions obviously have high internal forces acting through gears which the ATF must protect. Front wheel drive transmissions (both manual and automatic) in particular have a final drive arrangement similar to many tractors, with helical cut gears driving the differential carrier.

Many of these manual transmissions also employ lubricating pumps but have no filtration system other than a small mesh screen designed to keep large particles from destroying the pump. Thus, with no filter and the supposedly high detergent content of the fluid, in theory they would constantly be circulating contaminants throughout the system. With change intervals of 30-60,000 miles, the oil is in there for a considerable amount of time with apparently no ill effect as repair rates for manual transmissions are incredibly small.

I'd also like to hear some of the more knowledgeable people chime in with the more technical aspects of ATF in particular. Are EP additives not as big of a factor in the tractor world because of the design of the equipment or is it some other more obscure reason? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Jay

Soundguy · Apr 25, 2004

I do see mention of ep addatives, on UTF oils.. and in fact.. I see regular hyds oil warn not to use in final drives as they have no ep addatives. Just have yet to see an ATF specify that it has ep addatives.. though am not saying they don't.. I just don't know.. and am trying to find out.

I also see that auto trans do employ a decent filter, etc. Again.. just not sure.

The seal conditioners in the atf also make me wonder. And just a note.. I'm not specifically on the band wagon against.. just doing a bit of devils advocate, on behalf of the machine. The GC I work for has millions of dollars worth od yellow iron... ALL of their final drives specify gear oil.. none specify atf.... ( for that fact.. none of the trannies specify atf either.) Most specify 30w.. or UTF

Thanks for the comment. With your experience, it is well taken.

Soundguy

jimg · Apr 26, 2004

What's 'EP'?

jimg · Apr 26, 2004

I didnt realize manual transmissions used ATF. I thought it was along the lines of a lighter weight rear end oil.

KENSFM · Apr 26, 2004

"EP" = Extreme Pressure
Ken /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RalphVa · Apr 26, 2004

ATF is mostly highly refined 10w oil without much additive. Not sure whether it has EP additive or not. It's used in almost all modern transaxles of FWD cars and transmissions of stick shift cars. Rear wheel drive cars will usually still use 80-90w gear oil.

I'd go by what your manual recommends.

Ralph

Soundguy · Apr 26, 2004

That was my point.. the manual recomends an oil of some spec.. probably like a JD 303.. or equivalent.. ye tthe importers are passing it on saying atf is fine.. that's what we use over here ( japan? vietnam? )

Soundguy