Auto leveling FEL?

Jeff_B · Apr 8, 2004

Does anyone know of a device to automaticly level the FEL when using a pallet fork attachment? I will be doing some pallet work with a 4310 JD and wonderd if such a devise existed. Thanks!!

beenthere · Apr 8, 2004

Not available on the 4000 series Deere, as I am told the additional weight of the mechanical arm arrangements would be too great and would reduce lift capacity. They are available on the 5000 series Deere and up, I believe.

But maybe this is open for "invention". A 'level' with gyro that would feed the right information to the hyd. valve box to keep the forks (or bucket) level might be a way to go (as long as expense isn't a limiter). Or a digital readout or visual indicator like the "tilt meter" that would let the operator know the "level" position of the bucket or forks. Hmmm?

Otherwise, you can (will?) get better and better with experience as to where the forks are level (I am not there yet either!). /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

AndyMA · Apr 9, 2004

I have the mechanical self leveling loader on my NH TN. The loader on my Ford/ Nw Holland 2120 is not self leveling, but according to the manual their is a hydraulic self leveling option. It apears to be purely hydraulic in nature. Maybe Deere has something like that for your loader or maybe the NH system will work on your tractor.

Andy

Jeff_B · Apr 9, 2004

In the process of deciding which tractor to buy I asked both NH and JD about the leveler, they had never seen a unit like that for a compact. But I was talking to a sales guy /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

Beenthere, that sounds like a great idea to use a gyro. One idea I had was to use a mercury switch that is wired to a electric solonoid valve that would give the proper input to the hydraulics and maintain level when it is activated.

MossRoad · Apr 9, 2004

I have no idea if this would work, or how much iit would cost to plumb into a system on a common CUT, but it looks interesting. It is a PDF document and takes about 5 minutes to load on 28.8 dialup.

http://hydraulics.eaton.com/products/pdfs/11-511.pdf

_RaT_ · Apr 9, 2004

That is basically the leveleler used on the Kubota L48. It is a mixed blessing. While it works well, the extra plumbing would be a nightmare. All the plumbing will diminsh your view, trust me. It has it's faults in that it cannot be taken out of hydraulic leveling. That may well be one of the resons I think the new L48's are going to mechanical leveling. I have found with practice, using the loader control with both bucket and loader lift applied simaltaneously, you can do a pretty good job of keeping things level, that is of course providing your loader allows for such. My neighbors JD 790/70 does not allow for this, a real nuisance to me.

uhmgawa · Apr 9, 2004

( That is basically the leveleler used on the Kubota L48. It is a mixed blessing. While it works well, the extra plumbing would be a nightmare. All the plumbing will diminsh your view, trust me. It has it's faults in that it cannot be taken out of hydraulic leveling. )

As I recall there is an option available from Eaton which is a solenoid
in the self-leveling valve to bypass the mechanism. However it is not
available from Kubota.

I've found the Eaton valve to work better than it should considering
the design. Basically there is no feedback mechanism. It just guesses.
From what I understand the new design is mechanical/hydraulic with
the mechanical portion being a feedback link to the bucket. It is
probably cheaper than the Eaton valve and should be a more reliable
solution.

The most foolproof solution is the articulated parallelogram mechanism
but it has the drawback of adding additional dead weight to the loader.

uhmgawa · Apr 9, 2004

( The most foolproof solution is the articulated parallelogram mechanism but it has the drawback of adding additional dead weight
to the loader. )

Here is a drawing of the above.

MossRoad · Apr 9, 2004

Page 10 of the PDF shows the bypass solenoid and explains operation.

Anyone have an idea of what this puppy costs???

uhmgawa · Apr 9, 2004

( Page 10 of the PDF shows the bypass solenoid and explains operation.
Anyone have an idea of what this puppy costs???
)

I'd take a wild guess of $500-1000 from Eaton and about ten times that from
Kubota painted in charcoal gray.

I don't think you would want to retrofit this onto an existing loader. It is both
complex and big. I'd investigate a mechanically linked hydraulic system such as
the new L48's employ before I tackled this octopus.

RickB · Apr 9, 2004

Stay away from the HSL option on NH 7309 loaders.

DannyD · Apr 9, 2004

Amen to this, experience and the pain of "learning" by picking up loads that were not level is the best teacher. I drove forklifts for 12 years in a paper warehouse. You learn real quick what is level and what is not there.

One thing that comes to mind. Put on the forks, level them with a level.......then somewhere that you can see from the seat, put a mark at the nearest pivot point. Make this mark "level" and when the 2 points are there (or how ever many pivot points you have), you are level.

just a thought

_RaT_ · Apr 9, 2004

Uhm, that solenoid would have been very helpful for me. There where times while lowering the loader I would fight the bucket repositioning itself. On an old Ford tractor I used, there was a simple hydrualic valve that simply bypassed the whole self leveling system. Rat.

AndyMA · Apr 9, 2004

( Stay away from the HSL option on NH 7309 loaders. )

Rick, Thanks. Actually I had no intention of adding it, I just see it in my manual once in a while. I've had the 7309 since 1987 and I'm presently in th eprocess of rebuilding a cylinder for the second time in all these years. I have MSL on my New Holland TN and while it's great for forks, I'm not crazy about it for other uses. I bet with a couple of plazma cut plates and a few pieces of steel you could make most loaders into mechanically self leveling. I've been looking at my LA32 MSL to see if I could make it switchable by changing a few parts. I haven't see the loader on a new TN but from the brochure it appears that MSL is an option and not a separate model. If that's true maybe I can get some ideas there. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Andy

have_blue · Apr 10, 2004

( But maybe this is open for "invention". A 'level' with gyro that would feed the right information to the hyd. valve box to keep the forks (or bucket) level might be a way to go (as long as expense isn't a limiter).)

That makes me think of a completely independent bucket and leveling mechanism. No additional hydraulics, no plumbing nightmare, and cheap to manufacture. It could be actuated by a power window motor, robust worm and sector gears, and a damped tip switch. When turned on electrically, the bucket would automatically seek for level relative to the tractor's inclination, independent of and regardless of the hydraulics or boom position. It could also have a simple "independent mode", where it always seeks true level.

RickB · Apr 11, 2004

Andy, my first thoughts on your 'convertible' msl would be to remove the rear MSL link from the boom and fabricate a short link that would pin the 3 cornered pivot plate stationary to the loader's boom. Changeover would involve pulling 2 pins on each side, swapping links, and reinstalling the 2 pins per side. Pin mounts for the short, nonMSL link would have to be added to the boom. Interesting thought.

uhmgawa · Apr 11, 2004

( That makes me think of a completely independent bucket and leveling mechanism. No additional hydraulics, no plumbing nightmare, and cheap to manufacture. It could be actuated by a power window motor, robust worm and sector gears, and a damped tip switch. When turned on electrically, the bucket would automatically seek for level relative to the tractor's inclination, independent of and regardless of the hydraulics or boom position. It could also have a simple "independent mode", where it always seeks true level. )

You are competing with Eaton's self-leveling valve for most complex
solution. Although what you describe can be fashioned with parts
scavenged from a Home Depot Zircon level, a cast off cordless screw
driver, and a grab bag of electronics. I'd add a way to disable the servo
but display the incline of the bucket (for manual operation) both
relative to the tractor and absolute level. A front-to-back tractor
incline sensor comes for free here as well.

Then again there is the mechanical linkage a'la the new L48 which I just
managed to get a look at. The mechanism is fairly simple consisting of
a series of differential-sensing pivots tied together from bucket to the
loader's roll valve. Didn't have a camera handy or I would have taken
some pics to reverse-engineer the thing some rainy day. While the
design itself is a bit involved, the implementation is quite low-tech
and I'd predict to be reliable. This is such an inexpensive means to
implement a self-level feature I'm surprised it isn't more common.
Incidenially, there wasn't any apparent means to disable this
mechanism on the L48.

With either above approach you'd need to remove the roll valve spool
centering spring. The self-level linkage connects to the valve spool
via its own compression/extension spring. While removing this isn't
strictly necessary, leaving the original spool center spring in place
will require the self-level spring to overcome the force of the spool
spring. The collective spring resistance would make manual operation
of the valve rather stiff.

keeney · Apr 12, 2004

The other issue here is not so much that you want auto-leveling, but auto-stay-at-the-angle-I-started-at functionality.

When you have something on the forks, often you want a little roll-back to keep it there. Or sometimes, you want less roll-back.

Also, you need to decide if the angle is referenced to the tractor frame or to absolute up/down...

- Rick

uhmgawa · Apr 13, 2004

( Also, you need to decide if the angle is referenced to the tractor frame or to absolute up/down )

Conventional mechanisms maintain the angle relative to the tractor.
However it would be useful in certain scenarios to maintain the angle
relative to absolute level/plumb. Doing so compensates for changes in
pitch of the terrain while the tractor is in transit.