??? BAD COMPRESSION ??? now what I REALLY NEED YOUR HELP

[yorT]

100% quick learning virgin mechanic on Ford 1710 with 2600hr.

I've owned & operated this machine for the last 5 years doing the regular maintenance on oil, filters, hydraulic changes, etc.on a small farm mainly doing landscaping after building.

I now have a new problem that I need assistance with.
The tractor has been getting harder to start now it just turns over and over with a “gray” toned exhaust. It sounds like it wants to, but it just never gets there. I have not replaced the starter which I have found as a recommendation while searching out solutions for the problem.

Here’s what I’ve done so far ….
• power washed engine with hot water to clean off
• replaced all fuses, replaced battery
• flushed fuel tank, replaced fuel filter & fuel overflow hoses from injectors
• replaced oil heat sensor, engine heat sensor and fan belt
• followed primming procedures to start the engine
Attempted to start but same problem presented itself

Next in line ….
• verified fuel was going through aluminum injector lines
• verified injectors were spraying fuel using a piece of paper for pattern
• replaced glow plugs; primed the fuel following procedures
Attempted to start but same problem presented itself.

Next in line ….
Ran a compression test through the glow plugs. Each test was done on a cold motor because it will not start. Each test was turning the starter/ motor over 15-20 seconds to reach max pressure 2x on each glow plug location with all glow plugs removed.
• turned off fuel
• removed aluminum fuel lines from the injectors but left them attached to injector pump
• removed all the glow plugs then ran test on each glow port
• #3- with throttle open and closed 350-375 compression
• #2- with throttle open and closed 275 compression
• #1- with throttle open and closed 250 compression


My question is what is my next step? I’m learning as I’m going and trying to do what I can to save on dollars and understand how the engine operates for future repairs. I’ve researched using videos and forums to get where I am now however, I don’t know exactly what the next step is. I’m guessing that it’s a valve, piston or cylinder and I’ll be starting a disassembly on the head to access the needed locations.

Any help, advice, assistance or guidance, videos, documents, etc. would be greatly appreciated. I do have the Mechanics Manual and the Owners Manual which I have used as well. If there is additional information need, photos, videos of the engine or anything else I would be more than happy to get what you need to help me.

Thanks again for your assistance …. Troy

 

[1Mech]

Try looking this over.

/www.ntractorclub.com › howtos › pdfs › Compression-Testing-Tutorial.pdf

I figured your good compression should be around 425 PSI using their formula and the mid range multiplier and the listed 23:1 compression ratio (18.5 x 23 )
don't know if that is right. You might give the dealer a call.

 

[yorT]

Try looking this over.

/www.ntractorclub.com › howtos › pdfs › Compression-Testing-Tutorial.pdf

I figured your good compression should be around 425 PSI using their formula and the mid range multiplier and the listed 23:1 compression ratio (18.5 x 23 )
don't know if that is right. You might give the dealer a call.

Thank you, I'll call the local New Holland / Ford dealer on Monday to see if they can assist in breaking things down and what they had to say.

 

[Roadworthy]

Just for something to do, have you checked the valve adjustment? Have you determined what kind of voltage you're getting at the glow plugs?

 

[chander]

I will check the compression specifications in my manuals later today and post that information.
As Roadworthy mentioned, what voltage is present at the glow plugs. Check when in preheat and starting positions.
Check the resistance of each glow plug.
Does the glow plug indicator glow when you are preheating ?
These 10 series tractors need operational preheating systems even when the engine is warm.

 

[chander]

I am not able to find any compression specs for the 1710. On the 20 series (1720-1920) they call for 475 psi + or - 50 psi.
These are different design motors, but this is an example.

The valve lash specs are .008 cold.

You could try cylinder leak down test to narrow things down.

 

[yorT]

Just for something to do, have you checked the valve adjustment? Have you determined what kind of voltage you're getting at the glow plugs?

I have not done either suggestion. I will check voltage of the glow plugs and will research how to check valve adjustment and that tools and materials are need prior to going forward with that test.

Thanks for the advice, I need it all

 

[yorT]

I am not able to find any compression specs for the 1710. On the 20 series (1720-1920) they call for 475 psi + or - 50 psi.
These are different design motors, but this is an example.

The valve lash specs are .008 cold.

You could try cylinder leak down test to narrow things down.

I will do the voltage tests on the GP and post those readings. I currently have new plugs in and still have the same results. Answer to glow plug indicator on control panel when starting; the indicator glows red hot within 5 seconds of starting the warming process before turning the engine over.

 

[yorT]

Just for something to do, have you checked the valve adjustment? Have you determined what kind of voltage you're getting at the glow plugs?

I'll check GP voltage and research how to do the valve adjustments and what tools and supplies are needed.
Thanks for the advice

 

[Topzide]

I'm leaning towards valve lash adjustment.
Tools need other than basic mechanics tools would be a feeler gauge which can be picked up at just about any parts store or a HF.
Once you have the specs for valve adjustment, pretty simple job.
Hope it's this and not anything more involved!

 

[jones6780]

After you verify valve adjustment, redo compression test, then do a "Wet Compression Test" Will verify if rings or valves ar the problem.

 

[yorT]

I'm leaning towards valve lash adjustment.
Tools need other than basic mechanics tools would be a feeler gauge which can be picked up at just about any parts store or a HF.
Once you have the specs for valve adjustment, pretty simple job.
Hope it's this and not anything more involved!

Thanks Topside and Im with ya on the valve adjustment.

As an update, I did compression tests today both wet and dry using the injector ports doing each port 2x for both tests. I plugged in the block heater for about 2 hours prior to testing with the shop temp around 50. I also verified all electrical connections were good and clean. Additionally, I verified that the glow plugs were working, watching them through the injector ports. The #2 port seemed to always have some smoke coming from it throughout the tests while the others had none. For the WET test I put about 1tsp of engine oil in the port taking both tests without inducing additional oil. I also took pics of the ports with the glow plugs energized and off, pics of the injectors and a quick video trying to start the tractor.

When turning over after the glow plugs had been energized for 30 sec I noticed a clunking noise that wasn't there before. On the second attempt to start and to identify the location of the knocking noise, the starter went out. I have since ordered a new one that will arrive on Thursday. After installation I will post the response from the tractor.

Here were my results for the compression tests ....
#1: DRY 250psi & 250psi
WET 300psi & 295psi
Glow Plug 10.8 volts

#2: DRY 210 psi & 240psi
WET 260psi & 270psi
Glow Plug 10.8 volts

#3: DRY 340psi & 345psi
WET 350psi & 350psi
Glow Plug 10.11 volts

I appreciate your information and advice, I will post an update after the new starter is in.

 

[yorT]

After you verify valve adjustment, redo compression test, then do a "Wet Compression Test" Will verify if rings or valves ar the problem.

Thank you Jones, I will do new testing g as mentioned.


As an update, I did compression tests today both wet and dry using the injector ports doing each port 2x for both tests. I plugged in the block heater for about 2 hours prior to testing with the shop temp around 50. I also verified all electrical connections were good and clean. Additionally, I verified that the glow plugs were working, watching them through the injector ports. The #2 port seemed to always have some smoke coming from it throughout the tests while the others had none. For the WET test I put about 1tsp of engine oil in the port taking both tests without inducing additional oil. I also took pics of the ports with the glow plugs energized and off, pics of the injectors and a quick video trying to start the tractor.

When turning over after the glow plugs had been energized for 30 sec I noticed a clunking noise that wasn't there before. On the second attempt to start and to identify the location of the knocking noise, the starter went out. I have since ordered a new one that will arrive on Thursday. After installation I will post the response from the tractor.

Here were my results for the compression tests ....
#1: DRY 250psi & 250psi
WET 300psi & 295psi
Glow Plug 10.8 volts

#2: DRY 210 psi & 240psi
WET 260psi & 270psi
Glow Plug 10.8 volts

#3: DRY 340psi & 345psi
WET 350psi & 350psi
Glow Plug 10.11 volts

I appreciate your information and advice, I will post an update after the new starter is in.

 

[Jerry/MT]

Thank you Jones, I will do new testing g as mentioned.


As an update, I did compression tests today both wet and dry using the injector ports doing each port 2x for both tests. I plugged in the block heater for about 2 hours prior to testing with the shop temp around 50. I also verified all electrical connections were good and clean. Additionally, I verified that the glow plugs were working, watching them through the injector ports. The #2 port seemed to always have some smoke coming from it throughout the tests while the others had none. For the WET test I put about 1tsp of engine oil in the port taking both tests without inducing additional oil. I also took pics of the ports with the glow plugs energized and off, pics of the injectors and a quick video trying to start the tractor.

When turning over after the glow plugs had been energized for 30 sec I noticed a clunking noise that wasn't there before. On the second attempt to start and to identify the location of the knocking noise, the starter went out. I have since ordered a new one that will arrive on Thursday. After installation I will post the response from the tractor.

Here were my results for the compression tests ....
#1: DRY 250psi & 250psi
WET 300psi & 295psi
Glow Plug 10.8 volts

#2: DRY 210 psi & 240psi
WET 260psi & 270psi
Glow Plug 10.8 volts

#3: DRY 340psi & 345psi
WET 350psi & 350psi
Glow Plug 10.11 volts

I appreciate your information and advice, I will post an update after the new starter is in.

What is your nominal compression ratio? What altitude are you located at because barometric pressure (p1) plays a role in the final answer. The equation I use for determining compression pressure is:
Compression pressure calculation:

Engine compression ratio is actually a volume ratio not a pressure ratio. The equation I use to calculate the compression pressure is based on the isentropic equation pV^gamma=Constant (eqn 1) where p is the pressure, V is the volume and gamma is the ratio of specific heats of air.

Sparing you all the gory details, the equation for what you see on a compression gauge;

delta p = p1 x [(compression ratio)^gamma -1], (eqn 2)

where p1 is atmospheric pressure, gamma is 1.4 and delta p is the compression gauge pressure

Now the isentropic equation assumes constant mass in the cylinder but because of valve timing the mass in the real engine is not constant. And gamma isn't a constant either so K is a constant that adjusts the theoretical value of compression gauge pressure to account for this.

Eqn 2 then becomes delta p = K x p1 x [(compression ratio)^gamma -1] (eqn 3)

Assuminsg gamma =1.4. From experience K is between 0.70 and 0.75.
So a compression ratio 6.0 engine would have compression gauge pressure at an atmospheric pressure of 14.7 psia would be 124.6 psig (K=0.75). This is what you could expect as a maximum for a engine in good mechanical condition.

In your case your engine has much higher CR than the gas engine data show above. The CR could be anywhere from 17 to 23. At CR =17 and p1 =14.7 psia, K=0.70, delta p = 533 psig. At CR=23, delta p=814 psig. You need compression pressures in the range of 400 +/- 25 psig and you only have one cylinder close to that.

Based on these numbers and your measurements i would conclude that your rings are severely worn and quite possibly your valves might also be leaking. I would remove the cylinder head and have it checked for burned and/or leaking valves, flatness,etc and re-ring the pistons or replace the pistons and liners as the case may be. Since the pressures between adjacent cylinders are also down, I'd also suspect a blown head gasket.

 

[nyone]

You can also do a cylinder breakdown test and prob should prior to any major work. This will show you where air is getting out of the cylinder. Rings, glow plugs, injectors or valve seats.

It's a simple test where you get the valves shut and apply compressed air...then find where the air is leaking.