Best Tool for the Job??

[Snapper Head]

Flusher - that is a very good idea, as it makes perfect sense (which is why I didn't think of it).


Big Al

 

[patrick_g]

I have a 39 PTO horse power Kubota cab tractor with 4x4 hst and FEL. I routinely stack, unstack, and transport round bales in excess of 1000 lbs using a hay spike on the FEL. Due to tractors limited reach I can only stack round bales three rows high but there is no more height available in my hay barn so that is not limiting form me.

I do require a counterweight on the 3PH to safely handle the heavier bales. My box blade works fine and doesn't stick out so much as a brush hog so it is not a hassle maneuvering in restricted space. Kubota prohibits loading the tires on this model tractor (Grand L4610HSTC) but the same tractor without a cab can have loaded tires and I think that would remove the need for a counter weight. Oh... I do have three sets of cast iron rear wheel weights, the most kubota authorizes.

I will be getting a hay spike for the 3PH so I can haul 2 bales at the same time, one in front and one in the rear. The one in the rear will be the counter weight for the one up front so I won't need an added counter weight/implement on back.

Tractors smaller than mine can handle bales on the 3PH but go much smaller and you won't have good bale handling via the FEL (my preferred) arrangement. The drill is this: Back up to a bale and spear it with rear spike and then spear one with front spike and reverse the order when dropping off bales. First drop off the front one and then the rear one.

There is nothing wrong with getting a bigger more powerful tractor than you need but "right sizing" is more economical and then there are maneuvering issues. I assume horses implies barn, stable, loafing shed and so forth. Going just a little larger can make access difficult or impossible sometimes.

Here is a challenge for anyone who thinks my tractor is too small for your situation. Name some tasks that the OP will routinely do that my tractor can't do well enough to be cost and time effective. Then if there are any such tasks, estimate how much tractor is required to handle them and let us consider how much close in maneuvering will be lost. If it were me, I'd hate to have to manually handle all the "close in" horse related tasks just to get a larger tractor unless there were tasks that I did a lot that required it.

This tractor is about 7 years old and has never had an FEL problem except a damaged hose when I was rampaging in the woods logging and poked the hose with a broken limb. I am ranching 160 acres and think my tractor is a good fit size and HP wise. It is big enough for most tasks and not too big to get in close when I need to do so.

Pat

 

[John_Mc]

I've seen round bales in the 1000-1200 pound range, and others up around 2000#. You need to know which you are going to be handling. Another thing to remember is that these bales are BIG. The weight will likely be further out than the point used to rate the tractor's lift capacity. This means that a loader rated for 1200# is going to struggle with a 1000 to 1200# bale, especially if you need to get it more than a few inches off the ground.

If your dealer is worth his or her salt, they should be able to tell you what folks in your area are successfully using to lift round bales of the size you want to handle.

In the size range you need, you may be able to find better deals on a smaller farm tractor than on a larger compact tractor.

 

[boyst62]

One thing you can also do to handle hay is something I learned from my gramps. He bought a 3 pt hitch boom and had a spear welded on the end of it. It will throw my 55 horse power tractor around if the bale is wet or abnormally large (5ft+).
Post drivers are expensive but great! A Skid steer with a phd is a great asset to have. I rent one every fall to get done at least 4 times more holes than just a tractor rear end phd. When in softer soil I can dig 2 holes in less than 90 seconds spaced 14' apart.

 

[Snapper Head]

I have a 39 PTO horse power Kubota cab tractor with 4x4 hst and FEL. I routinely stack, unstack, and transport round bales in excess of 1000 lbs using a hay spike on the FEL. Due to tractors limited reach I can only stack round bales three rows high but there is no more height available in my hay barn so that is not limiting form me.

I do require a counterweight on the 3PH to safely handle the heavier bales. My box blade works fine and doesn't stick out so much as a brush hog so it is not a hassle maneuvering in restricted space. Kubota prohibits loading the tires on this model tractor (Grand L4610HSTC) but the same tractor without a cab can have loaded tires and I think that would remove the need for a counter weight. Oh... I do have three sets of cast iron rear wheel weights, the most kubota authorizes.

I will be getting a hay spike for the 3PH so I can haul 2 bales at the same time, one in front and one in the rear. The one in the rear will be the counter weight for the one up front so I won't need an added counter weight/implement on back.

Tractors smaller than mine can handle bales on the 3PH but go much smaller and you won't have good bale handling via the FEL (my preferred) arrangement. The drill is this: Back up to a bale and spear it with rear spike and then spear one with front spike and reverse the order when dropping off bales. First drop off the front one and then the rear one.

There is nothing wrong with getting a bigger more powerful tractor than you need but "right sizing" is more economical and then there are maneuvering issues. I assume horses implies barn, stable, loafing shed and so forth. Going just a little larger can make access difficult or impossible sometimes.

Here is a challenge for anyone who thinks my tractor is too small for your situation. Name some tasks that the OP will routinely do that my tractor can't do well enough to be cost and time effective. Then if there are any such tasks, estimate how much tractor is required to handle them and let us consider how much close in maneuvering will be lost. If it were me, I'd hate to have to manually handle all the "close in" horse related tasks just to get a larger tractor unless there were tasks that I did a lot that required it.

This tractor is about 7 years old and has never had an FEL problem except a damaged hose when I was rampaging in the woods logging and poked the hose with a broken limb. I am ranching 160 acres and think my tractor is a good fit size and HP wise. It is big enough for most tasks and not too big to get in close when I need to do so.

Pat

Pat,

Thanks for the feedback. I will only be stacking 2 high in the hay barn, and I have the luxury of being able to design the layout because I will be expanding the currently very small one into one that will hold about a half dozen bales.

Your admonition about "right sizing" is exactly where my starting point was. I think we can all agree that a bigger tractor is never a bad thing, but there are times when it is not the best thing. I may end up owning more than one tractor, but for now, I have to buy the best tool for the job.



Big Al

 

[patrick_g]

Pat,

Thanks for the feedback. I will only be stacking 2 high in the hay barn, and I have the luxury of being able to design the layout because I will be expanding the currently very small one into one that will hold about a half dozen bales.

Your admonition about "right sizing" is exactly where my starting point was. I think we can all agree that a bigger tractor is never a bad thing, but there are times when it is not the best thing. I may end up owning more than one tractor, but for now, I have to buy the best tool for the job.



Big Al

Big Al, One of my college buddies was called Big Al (the kiddies pal) after the character on Rowan and Martin's "Laugh-In" TV show.

You will get lots of suggestions. Some may be useful. Some may be experienced based instead of conjecture or wishful thinking. I have a friend whose GREEN tractor salesman convinced him that a certain JD was all the tractor he needed. It can hardly pick up a bale that my Kubota handles well. Not a color war statement as his tractor is smaller and has less HP and a LOT LESS FEL capability. It turned out that it is one size smaller than JD makes FEL hay spikes for so he made his own but it barely can pick up the bale and can't stack or unstack even just one bale on another (2 rows).

I load hay onto his trailer for him and he struggles to unload it. I will soon be getting a 3PH bale spear (found one for $150 + $50 shipping) I have NO RESERVATIONS about my 39 PTO HP being adequate. Sure there are things for which my tractor is too small, like jobs best done by a dozer. but to buy a big tractor to get dozer functionality is not (in my opinion) a smart thing. If I were row cropping I'd have a standard transmission and more HP but that is not what I do. I do a little of everything and most of it the tractor does well.

I guess if over 90% of the time I can do what I need and want and less than 10% of the time it is either too little or too big then like the third bear's porridge in Goldilocks's experience, it is JUST RIGHT.

I have experience with standard trans tractors but my tractor is HST. HST is ideal for me as I do a lot of maneuvering. HST has no downside sufficiently significant to warrant consideration in my uses. You may hear a lot of pontificating as regards HST and theoretical shortcomings but very little (or no) valid negative commentary will come from HST users.)

Something no one has ever explained to me is how I do virtually everything I need to do on 160 acres of cattle ranch with 39 PTO HP when the "knowledgeable pundits" advise significantly more. Surely it isn't my superior operating skill.

Pat

 

[Ken45101]

If you are going to be double stacking round bales, you will need plenty of tractor, capacity, and weight. Also, the wider the better for stability. It will be very risky if you have 1000+ pounds up ten feet off the ground and the tractor is not on perfectly flat terrain if it doesn't have a wide stance. Bales on the rear 3pt hitch cannot be raised more than a foot or so.

We used to feed round bales to the horses but have gone to square bales:
There is a lot of waste with round bales and they need to be covered from the weather unless they will be eaten up in a couple of days. If it rains and they sit there for a while, they go bad. Also, the horses tend to eat and eat and eat with round bales and get fat. With square bales, I can dole it out at the appropriate rate. Bottom line, although square bales are more expensive, they are a lot more efficient. But there is also a lot more manual labor with square bales. When we had 23 horses, they would go through a round bale in 3 days in winter. Now that we are down to 9 horses, I see no value in round bales.

For clearing those areas with trees, I suggest you get someone with a bulldozer to do it so that you get the root systems out and get the ground regraded. If you just cut off the trees, eventually they will rot out and you could have holes that the horses will step in and get hurt. Smaller trees can be taken out with a loader bucket with teeth, but it's a slow process.

I haven't price shopped for smaller tractors, but I tend to agree with those that say a 40-50 hp tractor sounds right. I do have a 27 hp tractor, but that's just a lawn mower and has never had anything more than a trailer or landscape rake attached to it. My main tractor has always been in the 40-50 pto hp range (Kubota M series).

Definitely recommend 4wd with a loader or hilly terrain! Absolutely!

Ken

 

[patrick_g]

If you are going to be double stacking round bales, you will need plenty of tractor, capacity, and weight. Also, the wider the better for stability. It will be very risky if you have 1000+ pounds up ten feet off the ground and the tractor is not on perfectly flat terrain if it doesn't have a wide stance.
Ken

Al, This is an example of differing views. Ken's experience is apparently different from mine. I have been stacking 1000 lb + round bales 3 rows high for several years with my previously described little Kubota with 39 PTO HP. Admittedly the "terrain" inside my hay barn is NOT HILLY but the rest of my place is not flat and I do have to exercise a modicum of caution when transiting with a bale on the FEL and can only do it with relative impunity if I have a serious counter weight. With no counter weight on the 3PH some of the heaviest bales are NOT SAFE to be moved as the rear wheels are prone to going airborne.

With a counter weight on the 3PH bale handling is NOT particularly exciting. NOTE: I do not handle 2000 lb bales. My bales do not exceed 12-1300 lbs.
Round bales can be fed efficiently but it takes a little more labor. You can buy round bales cheaply for the weight of hay and be a little less efficient in feeding it to horses and still beat the labor and cost figures of small square bales. Of course flaking off just a little hay to hand feed to Dobbin is easier with a small square.

Also... I can just barely stack bales 3 rows high. I have to spear the top row bales down low to be able to lift them high enough but it is not difficult if you just pay attention.

Warning: DO NOT STACK ROUND BALES USING PALLET FORKS!!!

Been there done that in direct conflict with GOOD advice given by dealer. Near disaster... went out and got spike.. never regretted getting the spike. Pallet forks are wonderful things and quite versatile BUT HAY HANDLING IS NOT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SHOULD DO WITH THEM!!! (If like me you are only superhuman and not immortal!)

Pat

 

[Ken45101]

Al, This is an example of differing views. Ken's experience is apparently different from mine. I have been stacking 1000 lb + round bales 3 rows high for several years with my previously described little Kubota with 39 PTO HP.

I'm not clear how we are differing. The OP asked about a 30 hp tractor. You are working with a 39 pto hp and I suggested 40-50. My old M4700 was 39 pto hp. OTOH, trying to handle roundbales with a B21 TLB (20 hp) was scary, even in the barn.

Ken

 

[Snapper Head]

Guys,

Thanks to each of you for your feedback. Differing opinions are a good thing, and we all don't have to agree on everything, or even anything.

Hay - we have Arabians, and we have to work hard to keep em at their good weight (read that to mean that getting fat is not a problem, being too thin is), most especially in the South MS summers. I also travel alot, so dropping a roundy in the pasture once week-ish is very convenient.

Bale Stacking - I have never done the task myself. I have watched it being done, and I understand the physics involved, and the dangers that are present. I did not recognize that using pallet forks was a no-no; indeed, I was thinking that they would be better than a spear. That's why I am on TBN, and why I want to hear all opinions.


Big Al

 

[patrick_g]

My dealer warned me against it but I too understood the physics (did my undergraduate work in Physics/Math) and knew what I was doing. I was really good at it. I could stack two bales atop one another like soup cans on a shelf, vertically not horizontally and get 6 bales on my wife driven utility trailer for transport to the hay barn and then stack them horizontally three rows high and then a little oops and one tumbled back toward me and was just barely stopped by the "back stop) on the pallet forks (you get these on REAL pallet forks but not bolt on accessories to a bucket.) The bale bent the back stop back and nearly made it over it which would have put it at least on the engine cover but likely through the windshield of the cab in my lap, a potential source of serious injury or death.

I went right out and bought the real thing, a Kubota brand quick attach bale spear made to fit my loader.

Ken, We sure agree on how too little of a tractor could be scary working hay in the barn on level ground. I think my Kubota Grand L4610HSTC is the smallest Kubota that can stack 1000 lb round bales 3 rows high and it JUST BARELY has sufficient reach to do it. It does it well and safely but if each of the bales were say 8-10 inches larger in diameter I couldn't do it without fussing with ramps to elevate the front wheels.

Just barely having sufficient reach is not a safety issue BUT... counter weight is! I have to have counter weight on the back of the tractor to safely lift, transport, or stack 1000 lb round bales. Kubota authorizes the use of 3 sets of their cast iron bolt-on wheel weights on my model tractor but prohibits liquid in the tires. Without the wheel weights you pick up the rear wheels not the bale on the spike and with them you are marginal and have to be very cautious and ready to drop the bale down at any time to keep the tractor upright. To be comfortable and give yourself the stability to traverse uneven terrain, turn at reasonable speeds instead of super slow, and make the combination work like it should you need something on the 3PH like a box blade or something else heavy.

If you can load the rear tires you might not need anything on the 3PH but I would "sneak up" on it, determining experimentally but very carefully how stable you are carrying a bale on the spike with nothing on the 3PH.

I'm not sure what current model Kubota most closely resembles the Grand L4610 but I would not recommend anything much smaller or lighter. It would be OK to have fewer HP but not smaller size or weight. I would definitely stay above 30 HP and nothing wrong with 50 if the tractor doesn't grow too much as I think close-in maneuvering is very important.

My 39 HP lets me brush hog trees up to 4-5 inches in diameter max using a brush hog rated for up to 80 HP. There are times I wish the tractor were smaller and times I wish it had more HP so I guess it is probably pretty close to the right size for me.

I have ordered a bale spike for the 3PH so I can carry two at a time using the one on the rear as a counter weight for the one up front. This will be3 VERY convenient this fall/winter as it will cut my trips in half across the pastures carting hay.

Pat

 

[Gittyup]

I admit to knowing nothing about stacking rounds. But, there are forks made for hay that are extra long and pointed, and come with a center spear too. They can be used for pallets, but are made for hay. Wouldn't this type be quite good at stacking/moving? And you can get them for the 3PH with hydraulic lifts that would let you stack 2 high. This even allows you to use an even smaller tractor, if one had to in tight spaces.

 

[Snapper Head]

Guys,

Thank you again for your continued feedback. I have narrowed my choices down (Big thanks to TBN:thumbsup::thumbsup, and as soon as I pull the trigger, I'll post up some pics.

Big Al