Biodiesel choices

[daTeacha]

I'm not quite sure this belongs here, maybe in owning/operating, but it's more in line with choices when considering a purchase, I think. If not, put it where it fits best.

While listening to the local Farm Hour at 5 this morning, a guy announces that NH has just declared all their engines to be compatible with B-100, or 100% biodiesel. Where are the other engine manufacturers with respect to the biofuels and do any of them differentiate between corn and soy based bio diesel fuels or blends?

 

[IXLR8]

Most all the rubber in fuel systems since the mid 90's will handle biodiesel, so in effect they are compatable, the question comes up with warrenty issues. Europe is 50% diesel cars, virtually all are warrented to run up to 100% BioD. In the US, the max VW will approve is 5%BioD, why... fuel quality. Most of the fuel in Europe is made from Rape Seed oil and they have fairly strick standards. The stuff in the US is made from Soy/Corn/used vegtable oil/etc. There is no consistancy to the quality, there is little enforcement to what little standards there are. The newest round of diesel cars, VW, MB, will not warrenty the use of any BioD, unless it comes from the GTL process. Again... it is a quality issue as the new common rail injection pumps are running between 32,000-35,000 psi. What sort of pressues are the injection pumps running in these tractors?? That is the key to BD usage. The older MB and VW that were running pump pressures less than 10,000psi can run fine on straight vegetable oil.

 

[daTeacha]

Oh, that explains a lot. I thought it was something to do with lubricity or lack thereof in the Biodiesels.

 

[IXLR8]

Actually BioDiesel has a MUCH better lubricity value than DinoDiesel, check out this study.
Lubricity Additive Study Results - Diesel Place

And this thread
Spicer's Additive Lubricity Results - TDIClub Forums

So just a 2% BD mixture helps to cut wear in half, based on the scar test.

Jim

 

[SkyPup]

The EPA is now going to step in and regulate the low quality of biodiesel on the market to improve it somewhat:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/renewablefuels/420b07019.pdf

 

[daTeacha]

That's a good read. Not too long, very informative. Nice find.

 

[Sno Ops]

Does anyone know if you can put 100% Bio fuel into the new 2008 Dodge Bluetech diesel engines? Its my tow rig and would like to possibly produce my own Bio fuel.

 

[SkyPup]

Does anyone know if you can put 100% Bio fuel into the new 2008 Dodge Bluetech diesel engines? Its my tow rig and would like to possibly produce my own Bio fuel.

I have a 2008 Mercedes Bluetech turbodiesel and it states specifically in big bold letters:

NO BIODIESEL.

That means no biodiesel period, not 2%, not 5%, not 20%, only 0%.

There was even a full page Mercedes-Benz statement attached to the dashboard of the new vehicle stating the exact same thing.

 

[IXLR8]

Does anyone know if you can put 100% Bio fuel into the new 2008 Dodge Bluetech diesel engines? Its my tow rig and would like to possibly produce my own Bio fuel.

Chances are no, unless you want to void your warranty. If that is the same Bluetech engine that Mercedes is using.. then Skypup has your answer. If you can get a high quality BioD, such as that made by the GTL (Gas To Liquid) process, then you might be okay. It is just that the new engines are running such high injection pressures and the present BioD available in the USA is not refined enough to properly handle those pressures, and provide the critical lubrication to the pump. Producing your own fuel adds many variables to the mix. If your base is a soy base from MickyD's, then that is not so good. If you can find something that is Canola or Rapeseed based, then you might stand a chance. The question you need to ask yourself; Are you willing to fund the replacement of your engine/injector pump if there is a failure? As I suspect if Dodge finds out you used BioD they will not. For a definitive answer, ask your dealer.

 

[Kendrick]

Kioti has not made any claims for or against.

If you are intrested in making your own it is not a bad deal. engine compatibility I wont attest to. for fead stock differences once you properly filter and convert the oil it is fuel... its like mixing concrete mix and water you get the same consistancy if you follow the directions properly. do bad mixing and get a crappy batch.

The standards for otr fuel require a bubble wash to remove most of the unused residues. most people dont see the point and dont do it. they may or may not get lucky. bio is a different animal the dino diesel but runs relitivly the same in an engine when properly produced. I believe the original tdi injection system also had some issues but has since been cleared up.

 

[IXLR8]

for fead stock differences once you properly filter and convert the oil it is fuel... its like mixing concrete mix and water you get the same consistancy if you follow the directions properly. do bad mixing and get a crappy batch.

Actually your feed stock does matter as to the quality of fuel you end up with. Soy based will does not give you the same level of lubricity, cetane rating or BTU capacity as a rapeseed or canola base. This is one of the differences why the europeans okay the use BioD in their cars. Most is made from rapeseed not soy, plus they have stricter quality control. The earlier TDI engines had issues with seals, has not been an issue since they changed seal material, I believe to viton. Although any properly done BioD has better lubrication and cetane than any DinoD comercially available in the states.

 

[Kendrick]

odd I had always heard it was quantity of oil per pound of raw crop that was different. ie 1 lb of coarn has 2oz of oil where rape sead would have 4. (Numbers made up)

I would love to see some docs on the differences

 

[SPYDERLK]

Most all the rubber in fuel systems since the mid 90's will handle biodiesel, so in effect they are compatable, the question comes up with warrenty issues. Europe is 50% diesel cars, virtually all are warrented to run up to 100% BioD. In the US, the max VW will approve is 5%BioD, why... fuel quality. Most of the fuel in Europe is made from Rape Seed oil and they have fairly strick standards. The stuff in the US is made from Soy/Corn/used vegtable oil/etc. There is no consistancy to the quality, there is little enforcement to what little standards there are. The newest round of diesel cars, VW, MB, will not warrenty the use of any BioD, unless it comes from the GTL process. [[[Again... it is a quality issue as the new common rail injection pumps are running between 32,000-35,000 psi. What sort of pressues are the injection pumps running in these tractors?? That is the key to BD usage. The older MB and VW that were running pump pressures less than 10,000psi can run fine on straight vegetable oil.]]]

Key issue??? Injector hole size vs particulate or lubricity or both?
larry

 

[IXLR8]

odd I had always heard it was quantity of oil per pound of raw crop that was different. ie 1 lb of coarn has 2oz of oil where rape sead would have 4. (Numbers made up)

I would love to see some docs on the differences

You are correct as far as the yields are concerned, this is one of the big differences I forgot to mention. Rapeseed does yield about twice as much as Soy. The initial work done with Algae indicates possible 10x yield over Soy. I went looking for the data to back up my statement... looks like I didn't bookmark the threads with the discussion and graphs. Sorry. It was either on the Biodieselnow.org web page or one of the biodiesel forums. I will keep looking.

 

[IXLR8]

Key issue??? Injector hole size vs particulate or lubricity or both? larry

Larry, my limited understanding is lubricity is a question mark, ability to handle pressures is a question mark, ability to flow to provide the lubricity is apparently a big question mark. Add these up and manufacturers don't want to stick their necks out. Tolerances are very tiny in the hi pressure pumps and injectors and BioD tends to be a little thicker than DinoD due to the left over fats. My understanding with the GTL process there just aren't any fats to be left over and it flows into the area's it needs to better. I am still learning the issues with the new systems, presently my sources are limited, but I am still digging and learning. Translated... don't take my word as gospel.