"Bogging" down the engine

[N80]

Its all about listening to the engine. I often wonder if people who are raised on automatic transmissions and HST tractors ever learn to listen to the engine. The reason I wonder that is that I have noticed that I don't pay attention to the engine now that I've been driving my first ever automatic transmission for 4 years.

But, when I drive a stick or my geared tractor, it all comes back. So that's why I suspect a lot of people have no idea what an engine is telling them.

Plus, the other day, I wasn't listening. Was pulling the box blade through some dense soil. Usually have it in a lower gear but had put it in a higher gear to travel a short distance. Didn't down shift and as the boxblade dug in and filled up, the engine started to lug, bog strain or whatever you want to call it. I was already hot, tired and frustrated and began to floor it when I realized I was in too high a gear. So even those of us who think we speak the language can get stupid when the conditions are right. It didn't take me long to realize what was going on...black smoke, heading towards a stall, me cussing out loud and when I realized it I down shifted and chugged right along.

I'm assuming no real harm done, but wouldn't want to do the poor machine that way all day.

Long story short, listen to the engine, it will tell you what to do...oh, and when you are hot, mad, tired and frustrated, it might be better to be on the porch than the tractor.

 

[Volfandt]

Long story short, listen to the engine, it will tell you what to do...

Hear hear!

There are times when I'll turn everything off and just listen to my auto's going throught the gears and especially when holding a nice steady speed and rpm. It' like music to my ears

Even my HST BX will tell me when I should go to low range or when to slow down in the thick stuff.

Lugging or bogging down, don't matter symantics, working an engine too slow for the job at hand tain't good for it, especially when alittle more throttle smooths it all out....

 

[cp1969]

It didn't take me long to realize what was going on...black smoke, heading towards a stall, me cussing out loud and when I realized it I down shifted and chugged right along.

I'm assuming no real harm done, but wouldn't want to do the poor machine that way all day.

Long story short, listen to the engine, it will tell you what to do...oh, and when you are hot, mad, tired and frustrated, it might be better to be on the porch than the tractor.

You didn't hurt anything.

I remember watching two guys run D6 and D7 Cat dozers. While digging (under full load), the engines would get to running so slow you could see individual puffs of smoke coming from the exhaust.

 

[john_bud]

I really don't think that is a good thing. Those engines are pretty tough, but running under that big of a load at what, 7-800 rpm? Not good. Pistons, cranks, rods, sleeves all expensive!

Just my opinion.

 

[Volfandt]

I remember watching two guys run D6 and D7 Cat dozers. While digging (under full load), the engines would get to running so slow you could see individual puffs of smoke coming from the exhaust.

Bet those puffs were white/blue too......

Theres a reason why those machines have to be serviced just about every AM before they go to work. They can go through engine oil as much as fuel.....

 

[RoyJackson]

I've been following this thread...

I think we're confusing bogging and lugging. I'm not sure if there's really a difference other then degree.
Bogging, to me, would be a minor slow down of the engine while working it hard. This would be a short term (a few minutes at most).
Lugging would be a more continuous thing..and more severe. More severe to the point it could do engine damage if not stopped (by going to a lower gear, for example).

When I'm brush cutting, I'll go through an area of thicker brush which slows the engine RPM. I'll slow or stop travel until the engine RPM returns to normal.
I've never lugged an engine...but it's a result of working it too hard at too high a gear.

 

[hill]

if you want to SEE the effect of lugging your diesel engine just install a pyrometer - an exhaust gas temperature gauge. Those temperatures will rise and fall with the efficient operation of the engine, and they go up and down quickly in direct relation to the speed and load.

How hot is too hot depends on the engine and it's configuration (and owner opinion), but run at too high a temperature for long and a holed piston will likely be the result.

 

[npaden]

So let's see if I have this right.

"Bogging" is overloading the engine at a reasonable RPM but when the tractor is struggling to keep up that RPM? i.e. I'm pulling a disc with my tractor at 2,400 RPM in 5th gear and the disc really digs in deep, I go to full throttle (540 PTO on my tractor is 2,400 RPM but the tach goes to 2,600 RPM) and the tractor drops to 2,100 RPM and holds it there but is straining quite a bit. After about 15 seconds of leaving it at 2,100 RPM while it is at full throttle and noticeablely straining, I downshift to 4th gear and the tractor runs back up to 2,400 RPM easily.

"Lugging" is when the tractor runs all the way down to 1,000 RPM under the same scenario and I just keep chugging along with the tractor literally crying in pain underneath me.

Does this sound right?

Thanks, Nathan

 

[3RRL]

I've been following this thread...

I think we're confusing bogging and lugging. I'm not sure if there's really a difference other then degree.
Bogging, to me, would be a minor slow down of the engine while working it hard. This would be a short term (a few minutes at most).
Lugging would be a more continuous thing..and more severe. More severe to the point it could do engine damage if not stopped (by going to a lower gear, for example).

Roy, I tend to agree with your analogies.
I think posterboy and Johnbud were trying to say the same things too.
Bogging of an engine occurs all the time to some degree while working the tractor due to variations in working conditions...assuming a preset rpm. Lugging would be when the working conditions continue to impose such a load on the engine that either a lower gear selection then becomes appropriate or lessening the load is required.

 

[Bob_Young]

John Bud,
It is a 1000RPM attachment...a 9 ft. Woods SS108 as I recall. Two augers and a blower.

I was attempting to clear snow from a 3800' asphalt runway. Snow was about 14" deep. Progress was painfully slow. 0.6 mph. HST was in low range.

Would've thought 105HP could move a 9 ft. blower faster than that. Maybe it wasn't setup/designed right.

Before the winter was over I dropped the blower off the TV140 and just used the tractor w/pusher for clearing the ramp and taxiway turnoffs. Used a dumptruck with a blade for the runway & main taxiway.

Everything was owned by the county and in excellent shape. I may end up with the same assignment this winter and would like to find something that blower is good for....other than postcard pictures of a New Holland throwing snow.
Bob

 

[john_bud]

Bob,

I've not run a big blower like that. On smaller ones, I have seen where a person added 90w140 gear oil and when it got to -20f, it sucked the power out of the tractor while doing very little. Not saying that's the root cause.

I too would think that 100 hp would be enough, but checked the woods web site and the SS108 calls for 100-175 PTO HP. So, you were on the bottom edge of the requirements. Plus 14" of snow is a fair amount. Was it also that wet heavy stuff you get coming off the lake? That is harder to blow too~! Around here, it's usually cold as a witches .... uh ... well.... you know, it's usually so cold the snow is light and fluffy. Easy to blow even when you're marginal on supplied power.


npaden,

"Lugging" is when the tractor runs all the way down to 1,000 RPM under the same scenario and I just keep chugging along with the tractor literally crying in pain underneath me.


I like your description! Very graphic.

jb

 

[cp1969]

Bet those puffs were white/blue too......

Nope, they were black. In fact, smoke rings could sometimes be seen.

My definitions:

Bogging: When you apply so much load to the engine that it will die if you don't take immediate action to get rid of that load.

Lugging: Any time when the governor (or operator, on non-governed engines) is giving the engine the maximum amount of fuel it can give, and the engine does not increase rpm, you are lugging the engine. Can occur at ANY rpm.

Bogging is extreme lugging but for a very short time.

 

[SPYDERLK]

John Bud,
It is a 1000RPM attachment...a 9 ft. Woods SS108 as I recall. Two augers and a blower.

I was attempting to clear snow from a 3800' asphalt runway. Snow was about 14" deep. Progress was painfully slow. 0.6 mph. HST was in low range.

Would've thought 105HP could move a 9 ft. blower faster than that. Maybe it wasn't setup/designed right.

Before the winter was over I dropped the blower off the TV140 and just used the tractor w/pusher for clearing the ramp and taxiway turnoffs. Used a dumptruck with a blade for the runway & main taxiway.

Everything was owned by the county and in excellent shape. I may end up with the same assignment this winter and would like to find something that blower is good for....other than postcard pictures of a New Holland throwing snow.
Bob

How far does it throw the snow? If its a hundred feet or more I could maybe believe a correctly designed 9' blower could use 105 PTO HP in 14" snow at 2 or 3 mph. I have an 8HP walk behind that throws 28"W X 14" snow more than 40' as fast as you can comfortably walk behind it. Wet snow it throws further but a little slower. That Woods is using almost 3 times the power per unit width snow and I could clear your driveway almost as fast with 8HP Murray.
Theres gotta be something wrong with it.
larry

 

[Bob_Young]

larry,
The comment "I could clear your driveway almost as fast with 8HP Murray" rang a bell. Thought the same thing while running the thing.

Most of that winter, the wind blew steady and strong from the West. Most mornings there would be drifts, usually not too big, downwind of the snowpiles on the west side of the runway (north-south rwy). I tried using the blower to clear the drifts a few times. With a strong (18 to 20K) west wind, snow thrown from the west side would clear the 75 ft. wide runway...but very little more. So, no, under static conditions the blower would not throw the snow 100ft. There would be enough fallout from the thrower stream that the runway would have to be cleaned up afterward with a blade. Of course, throwing into a 20K wind is a non-starter even with a cab.

The blade on the truck was actually far and away the best on the runway....until the snowpiles grew higher than the top of the blade. Then I had to get creative. It was pretty cold that winter too, so this wasn't heavy wet snow. In fact that 14" snowfall I talked about was rather fluffy.

I think you're right, the blower had a problem.
Bob

 

[Kendrick]

Its all about listening to the engine. I often wonder if people who are raised on automatic transmissions and HST tractors ever learn to listen to the engine.

I do and the first thing I saw with a clutch was my tractor this year. I always listen to my cars engin and ease off the gas just before the transmission is going to shift.

 

[RobJ]

Bogging, lugging, could be interchangeable depending where you are.

I defind bogging as working it hard, hitting some extra load. I've bogged my tractor and stalled it before while BHing. Just didn't raise the mower or hit the clutch fast enough. It'll also bog down a bit if I hit some thick grass or brush.

Lugging I define as I'm in 4th gear, just above and idle, going up a hill. The engine will surge as it tries to keep up. But since my throttle (fuel position inside the injection pump) is set low, the governor will not kick in enough to overcome it. If I give it some more throttle, it'll smooth out.

IMO bogging is ok until the engine is close to stalling, I don't like stalling an engine. Bogging from 2500 to 2000 rpm, no problem except possibly overheating if it's sustained for some time.

Rob

 

[JoeL4330]

To avoid "bogging" set RPM just on "backside" of torque curve ...momentary loss of RPM increases torque ...by design this is (should be) where the tractor achieves the recommended PTO rpm.