Tractor Sizing Buying my first tractor for work on three distant and very different plots

[vrenifossi]

Hi and thanks to everybody again,
it took me a while to understand that your recommendations on a L47 refer to the TLB and not to the L4701 tractor as I thought before. In fact I was not aware that both JD and Kubota offer "real" backhoe loaders with tractor capabilities. They were hidden on the websites under "construction" where I never looked (I always looked under farm equipment). So my comments and concerns referred to the tractor models, so please forget them...

A TBL with PTO and 3PH really seems to be the way to go for me, thanks for bringing me on this path. I see that either a used JD 110 or a Kubota L45 would be the ideal models since a L47 might be out of reach for my budget (the very few used L47 are still pretty new and thus expensive...).

Although pure backhoe loaders are very common, unfortunately TBL with PTO are not common at all in Chile so a second hand market for those machines is virtually non-existent. Nevertheless, last week a JD 110 showed up with 3000 hours. This is a very rare opportunity. The seller imported it from the US and claims to have been the only owner/user since. I was in email contact with the seller and the machine seems to have 3rd function front valve but since he did not mention 3-point hitch nor rear remotes I suppose non of those are present. Of what I have read, this might be a problem since the 3PH is not available from JD anymore and the valves cannot be implemented later. And 3000 hours is not really a low hour machine and I do not want to have a device on which I spend half the time repairing or looking for spare parts...The seller claims that the machine is in very good shape and he offers it for 27.000 US$

I would like to have at least a look on this machine (although it is 600 miles away) but with no experience in these machines I have not much idea what to look for when I check it other than visible leaks, corrosion or other obvious flaws and damages.

Importing a used machine from the US would have the advantage that I could put accessories in the same container and I could have a machine in (or close to) the configuration I like, plus I could probably have a much better sales price.

The disadvantage of importing from the US would be that I would buy a used machine from photos (which would probably be no big problem if I buy a low hours machine from a trusted dealer and I do not know much what to check for anyway). To the sales price I would have to add shipping to Chile and to the sum of both 19% Chilean VAT and 6% customs, plus a couple of fees for the importation process, which in the end probably would at least eat up any price advantage over buying in Chile.

Buying in Chile would mean to buy whatever shows up since these machines show up perhaps once a year...

Difficult...!
Does anyone have an idea how many hours the JD 110 generally last before they start making problems on a regular base? I will put this question also on a JD 110 specific thread as well.

 

[Fiziksgeek]

My wife is Chilean...well, half anyway. Her mother is a Santiago native, and now in retirement, spends about 4 months of the year down there....avoiding the cold winter for the most part. I can't help you with that used JD110 TLB, I have no experience there. My only comment would be that at 3000 hours, although its still got life left, its not a spring chicken either...

My recommendation would be to start by planning to hire out the pond building....and maybe a couple of other jobs on occasion. Then I'd buy a mid size Kubota L series, L3901 maybe, and set my expectations properly. Spend some time reading up on what people are doing with tractors of this size, and see if that meets your needs. IF you really want a machine that can do everything on your list, it will push you to a larger more expensive machine. If you can hire out a couple of the big items, you'll really be looking at a reasonable size/cost tractor!

 

[jenkinsph]

Hi and thanks to everybody again,
it took me a while to understand that your recommendations on a L47 refer to the TLB and not to the L4701 tractor as I thought before. In fact I was not aware that both JD and Kubota offer "real" backhoe loaders with tractor capabilities. They were hidden on the websites under "construction" where I never looked (I always looked under farm equipment). So my comments and concerns referred to the tractor models, so please forget them...

A TBL with PTO and 3PH really seems to be the way to go for me, thanks for bringing me on this path. I see that either a used JD 110 or a Kubota L45 would be the ideal models since a L47 might be out of reach for my budget (the very few used L47 are still pretty new and thus expensive...).

Although pure backhoe loaders are very common, unfortunately TBL with PTO are not common at all in Chile so a second hand market for those machines is virtually non-existent. Nevertheless, last week a JD 110 showed up with 3000 hours. This is a very rare opportunity. The seller imported it from the US and claims to have been the only owner/user since. I was in email contact with the seller and the machine seems to have 3rd function front valve but since he did not mention 3-point hitch nor rear remotes I suppose non of those are present. Of what I have read, this might be a problem since the 3PH is not available from JD anymore and the valves cannot be implemented later. And 3000 hours is not really a low hour machine and I do not want to have a device on which I spend half the time repairing or looking for spare parts...The seller claims that the machine is in very good shape and he offers it for 27.000 US$

I would like to have at least a look on this machine (although it is 600 miles away) but with no experience in these machines I have not much idea what to look for when I check it other than visible leaks, corrosion or other obvious flaws and damages.

Importing a used machine from the US would have the advantage that I could put accessories in the same container and I could have a machine in (or close to) the configuration I like, plus I could probably have a much better sales price.

The disadvantage of importing from the US would be that I would buy a used machine from photos (which would probably be no big problem if I buy a low hours machine from a trusted dealer and I do not know much what to check for anyway). To the sales price I would have to add shipping to Chile and to the sum of both 19% Chilean VAT and 6% customs, plus a couple of fees for the importation process, which in the end probably would at least eat up any price advantage over buying in Chile.

Buying in Chile would mean to buy whatever shows up since these machines show up perhaps once a year...

Difficult...!
Does anyone have an idea how many hours the JD 110 generally last before they start making problems on a regular base? I will put this question also on a JD 110 specific thread as well.

Well when inquiring about a 110 I would ask the specific questions such as,
Does this unit have a complete three point hitch? If yes is it the standard hitch or is it the top n tilt hydraulic hitch?
Does it have the 3 rear remote hydraulics with diverter?
Does the backhoe have seven functions with the boom mounted hydraulic couplers?
What buckets are included and any other attachments?
Are there any issues or problems with the unit?
Can I have a mechanic check it out for me?
Do you have complete maintenance records?

Just some of the basic questions I would ask before I made a long drive to see the machine. Some people keep maintenance records religiously, I don't, all my records and receipts are in my IRS files for the business.
Some good pictures of the 110 or L45 would help me decide whether to make the trek.

I want to point out the tractor loader backhoe is tlb not tbl.

 

[vrenifossi]

My recommendation would be to start by planning to hire out the pond building....and maybe a couple of other jobs on occasion. Then I'd buy a mid size Kubota L series, L3901 maybe, and set my expectations properly. Spend some time reading up on what people are doing with tractors of this size, and see if that meets your needs. IF you really want a machine that can do everything on your list, it will push you to a larger more expensive machine. If you can hire out a couple of the big items, you'll really be looking at a reasonable size/cost tractor!

Hiring out bigger tasks is an obvious option and was my first thought, too. But one of my plots is a day trip from the next rental opportunity (at least one that I know of) and machines are only rented out with operator and paid by the hours (generally around 35-40 US$ an hour, machine plus operator). If it arrives trailered (an option that not all rentals have) I will have to pay for the truck plus TLB time during transport process and if a TLB comes un-trailered it takes forever. So if I cannot finish all heavy machine task in one block or if I find that after the main work is finished something has to be added or improved it will cost me another two days of machine just for getting the machine to and from my plot. The other consideration was that many jobs extend over days but require only machine assistance for lifting something or bringing material once in a while (e.g. building the bridge over the creek) during which the actual working hours of the machine would be minor. Nevertheless I would have to pay every hour the machine and the operator sit and wait...

You may say that for the money that an own machine costs you can pay a lot of hours. True! But I made some rough estimations on how many machine days I would need just in the construction phase and came to the conclusion that this could already cover 2/3 of the acquisition costs. Of course you have to add fuel and maintenance costs, but then it also shows that tasks always take longer than originally expected. On the long run, working in the woods etc. I am pretty sure that it would pay off within few years (actually after around 100 working days with a machine that costed me 27.000 US$). This under the condition that the machine lasts a couple of years and repair and maintenance costs remain reasonable.

Concerning time savings my experience is that if I hire out earth movement jobs I have to be present most of the time at the work site anyway. There always happen unexpected things and I never had an operator who understood from the beginning what exactly I wanted and they generally do not care too much for collateral damages. Plus, when renting out I feel more stressed by the time pressure and by the fact that I have to give instructions for getting the result I want, but at the same time being careful not to piss off the operator. I have not been working with such a machine yet, but my job is mainly in front of the computer, so I enjoy physical and outdoor work for a change and I imagine that doing those jobs myself is more fun and less stressfull and may provide better results (which all remains to prove). I believe that earth movement will always be a considerable portion of the tasks, so a TLB with 3PH and PTO may really be the way to go.

Concerning the JD110 TLB for sale in Chile: After some back and forth it showed that the seller is a professional re-seller who imports used machines from the US. Does not really strengthen my trust in him with the story he told me before. In fact he seems to have three JD 110 TLB on sale of which one does not have third loader function so I discarded that one. From the other two one has 3600 hours and is from 2004 and the one that I described before has 2950 hours and is from 2007.

He did not answer specifically yet, but I am pretty sure that none of the machines has 3PH nor the 3 rear remote hydraulics with diverter, nor hydraulic thumb. How complicated would it be to add those elements? He offers an additional trenching bucket, but that will cost extra...

I do not know how I could see if the backhoe has seven functions with the boom mounted hydraulic couplers? I count 5 functions: left/right swing, boom up/down, dipper up/down, bucket rotation in/out and the stabilizers up/down. Or does that mean that there should be four further couplers (2 pairs) available that need to be situated on the boom? One pair would be for the hydraulic thumb and the other? Attached the photos from the ad.
I am pretty sure that I could take a mechanics with me to check the machine if only I knew a good one? never owned a construction machine, so I never needed a heavy machine mechanic.

I doubt that there are maintenance records, taking into account that these machines have been imported second hand

I have to admit that I am somewhat reluctant to buy a machine with almost 3000 hours, I have already too many things that require constant repair (and I hate to go for accomplishing something but at the end of the day I only did repairs on my tools...) I will try to find out if the guy could eventually import a machine with less hours and a configuration closer to what I want. Apparently, he has someone in the US who looks for and buys these used machines...

 

[Egon]

If they are imported machines then you will be paying all the import fees as they will be included in the cost.

You might contact JD to inquire about buying & importing a used machine through a dealership. Perhaps there are returned leased machines from JD that could be available for resale. This might also give you broader range of type and size of equipment available.

3000 hours on industrial equipment that has been properly maintained is probably about 30 -40% of life expectancy for the equipment. .????

on the local unit available follow your instincts. There is always another tractor available.

 

[Gary Fowler]

I have to say that the JD110 is a great sized machine for a farm but without a 3 PH it is just a backhoe. I have a Kubota B26 and am amazed at the work it will do. It isn't the fastest machine for digging but it is strong for a 26 HP 4000 pound machine.
I bought mine used with just 68 hours for $20,500 about 5 years ago and it has done a lot of work for me. It wont be as fast or strong as the 110 but they come standard with QA FEL bucket, 3 PH (lift arms and attachments might be extra though if you are buying new). Mine came with the lift arms although I have not installed them since I got it. I have a much larger tractor for my 3PH work and only use the B26 for back hoe work. I am sure that a B26 would handle much of the work you are needing done. I assume an L 45 would be much better and faster but I have never used one of them, but in most instances, bigger is always better.

A hydraulic thumb on a backhoe is almost a necessity since it increases the uses a lot. I use mine to pick up trees, stumps, rocks etc rather than using my back muscles which aren't as strong as they used to be.

The biggest thing to look out for with a TLB is loose or extremely worn pins in the swing arms, dipper and bucket. These can be hard to replace if worn excessively. It is very easy to see by just working the backhoe to see how much slop it has. A little is to be expected on a 3000 hour machine but may not be a deal breaker if not excessive.

Leaking hydraulics is another item that can be expensive to fix if on the cylinders. Leaking hoses can be pretty cheaply replaced but might be a little time consuming getting the old ones out and new ones in since they all should run thru the booms with little to no hoses hanging out like the one in one of the photos.

 

[rScotty]

I'd definitely be looking at TLBs over regular tractors. My favorite TLB is the Kubota M59 or the new M62. They are the largest TLBs that Kubota makes, but still less than half the size of a regular yellow construction TLB like the ever-popular Deeres, Cats, or Case machines that are so commonly seen on construction sites.

And the Kubota has the advantage of coming stock with a standard skid steer quick change bucket and front remote hydraulics, a full time/full power PTO, a category II 3pt hitch, 4wd, and a six speed HST transmission. With that category II 3pt it can work as a regular tractor or a TLB. Plenty of power, proven reliability, and they are commonly found on the used market with less than 1000 hrs.
Of course I'm biased....ours works great.
For anyone curious about Kubota's big TLB, there's a long thread here on TBN about the M59 model that has been running on and off for close to ten years now. I forget how many pages it is, but there's a lot of info there. The thread was originally designed to be a repository of model specific information by and from owners.
Luck,
rScotty

 

[Cataclysm]

From reading your needs definitely go with the Kubota TLB. You need the swiss army knife of construction equipment and a TLB is just that.

Cry once over the price and have the right machine to do the jobs you need. If you have to in the end you can sell it and get a lot of your money back. I will bet that you keep it.

 

[vrenifossi]

Hi again,
unfortunately I had to discard the JD110s that were offered in Chile. None of them has 3PH and actually 3000 hours seems to be too risky for me. And the price was not so attractive that I would take that risk. On the other hand I may have found a way to import with reduced VAT and without customs. It just may require me to buy another lot to have an address in the free trade zone not far away... With this in mind my search has narrowed down to 4 models: a used Kubota L45, L48, a well equipped JD110 or even a Kubota M59. L47 is ruled out because all second hand offers I have found (which are few) are still pretty new and thus too expensive.

But all of those options make my 2 ton trailer obsolete. Since I do not want another trailer (and my wife would kill me for another large trailer standing around) I would sell my dump trailer and look for a larger dump trailer on which I could also trailer the TLB. A 6CAM616LPDH or equivalent would work I guess. It would be crowded (especially with a M59) but with the hoe on the tail I think it is possible and I will need a dump trailer anyway. This setup would require me to get another driving licence, but that is not such a big deal in Chile. And it would need to postpone my plans because it requires some more money saving and wife convincing...Trailering a M59 on a dump trailer would be pretty close to the towing weight limit of my truck, but I do not want to rule out the M59 because it seems to be an awesome machine and I have seen some very attractive low hours offers (relative to original price).

My questions is: the inner width of a 6CAM616 trailer is indicated with 81.5 inch (2070 mm). The width of a M59 would is indicated different on different web sites, between 1890 mm and 2154 mm (84.8 inch). Does anyone have reliable data on this? The other models should be fine with their width (between 1840 and 1890mm) and weight.

Any comments on these considerations?

Between L45 and L48, which would you prefer and why?

Cheers,
Gunter