Case 580C backhoe died while running. Now starter cant turn engine over. Locked up?

[jeremy360]

Ok, so I learned a lot from this site by lurking to get up enough courage to pick up a 1980 Case 580C. It looked like a tight machine and strong. Started real fast, would lift both ends at idle no problem and fast. Price seemed fair...$7500. Pins were tight, bushings in great shape, no welds on anything, no real bad leaks, basic stuff worked (minus tach, gauges, brakes, and starter push button). I topped off fluids and planned on changing fluids and filters after a day or two of use. I greased up all the pins with 3% moly grease. Anything with needle bearings or higher speed got Mystic grease. Everything took grease ok. I got the instrument cluster going (12v supply issue) and buffed it out so you can see through it. I also added a ford starter relay to the case starter relay (previous owner had been using a screwdriver). I also took apart the mechanical part of the starter relay and sanded/shined and cleaned it up for good contact. It starts fast, strong, and easy. I wanted to use the tractor for a few days to see what all I needed to buy for it, so here is where the story starts.

I'm operating in sandy soil about 1/3 to maaaybe 1/2 throttle, digging out a small pond (think size of a car). I wanted to practice on level land and in soft soil taking thin passes. I was taking it easy learning the machine. No bucking or anything. Everything is going well for almost an hour and while I was swinging a backhoe bucket of dirt the engine died. It didnt sputter, make noise, screech, knock, rattle or anything. The best way I can describe it was like someone just pinched the tailpipe shut or pinched hydraulics to kill it. It died fast, but no thunk or thud was heard. I tried to start it back up and the starter would turn the engine maybe 5-10 degrees then "bounce" back. You could watch the engine fan blades. Its like something mechanical is keeping the engine from turning, almost like it being hydro-locked.

Here is what I did:
-checked oil, didnt have water in it or smell like diesel at all. Level was right at full line
-checked radiator fluid, no oil in it. level was fine. Was able to pop cap off in 5 minutes and it didnt spew. I could touch the engine by hand. It did not overheat at all.

Next day:
-checked battery voltage (12.4) Jumped it at 13v still did the same thing. Voltage dropped some but not enough to be a concern.
-tried starting with front bucket and a backhoe lever engaged just in case the hyd pump was hyd locked up, no go.
-took a screwdriver to the flywheel inspection port and could turn the engine about 8 teeth (could go 4 teeth each direction) and then it would get hard and didnt feel comfortable prying any harder

Next thoughts:
-Starter seems 100% working and fine, but pull it and make sure nothing is locked up. Really dont think thats it, but its an easy thing to do.
-Remove injectors to make sure I am not hydrolocked. Doubt that would be the case, or the engine oil would have indicated a problem.
-Doubt flywheel bolt backed out into the housing, would think that would have made noise.
-Pull hydraulic pump and try to spin over engine. Wondering if the pump didnt break a tooth and then lock up? I assume that could stop an engine like that. Thinking this is the most likely candidate.
-Read somewhere someone had an injector pump fail and it locked up an engine. I would think the engine would overcome and break it, but its a thought.

I'm really leaning towards the hyd pump breaking a tooth and locking up or something of that nature. Hate to have to drain the hyd fluid to pull the pump though to see if the engine and the pump both turn separately.

Based off what I describe, what would be yall's next move to troubleshoot it? Thanks in advance for taking the time to read and respond. I greatly appreciate it.

-Jeremy

 

[Billrog]

I had a 1981 backhoe do that pulled the head and it had dropped a valve. Hope what ever it is with yours is simpler.

 

[jeremy360]

Not what I wanted to hear, but I will take all the help I can get. When you say dropped a valve, I assume you mean a keeper came loose and dropped it down into the cylinder or that the valve broke in half and dropped it? Im guessing this should be something that I can see with the valve cover off?

 

[jeremy360]

Welp...had a little daylight to look at it. Hydraulic pump looks to be the issue. I was able to shine with a flashlight and see the splines were torqued and flaking. I pulled the pump partially out and the engine turned over just fine. I left the pump hooked up to the hoses until my new one arrives. I could not turn the pump by hand...but it was tough getting anything on the shaft to even try to spin it. Hopefully the pump internals just locked up and there's nothing else that caused it. Guess I won't know until I take it out. The only thing I worry is that if there was some valve that failed that caused it to lock up. One thing that seemed odd to me was that the outriggers were holding the backhoe up. I used the levers and it did not let the machine down. I had to crack a line at each cylinder and lift them with a come-a-long and let them bleed the pressure. I needed to pull the machine to higher ground with potential rain coming.

Hopefully it's nothing, just thought it was wierd the outrigger levers wouldn't let the machine down. In the back of my mind I wonder if something didn't plug or fail (other than the pump) to cause the issue. Either way I think a new pump is needed....just hoping it doesn't lock up with pressure soon as the new one is on.

 

[Billrog]

Good to here it's the pump that went haywire. Don't be concerned about the stabilizers they operate when the motors running and you have a pump that works.

 

[BukitCase]

IIRC, there's an "adapter" that mounts to the front pulley on the engine that should ALSO get replaced from the look of that spline -

And Bill's right about the stabilizers - reason is they both have check valves in their circuits that require pump pressure on the OPPOSITE port in order to retract. On my 580B tho, they will EXTEND til they touch the ground when I move the control lever to "down" position, even with motor OFF.

In fact, I KNOW my control valves haven't been touched since I've owned it (about 14 years) - the cylinders HAVE, (but NOT the check valves) and I can STILL set mine off the ground front and rear and come back a week later and it won't have moved.

BTW, just noticed your post count - welcome to TBN... Steve

 

[BukitCase]

Here's what I'm talking about on your pump drive; see Item# 14 on diagram, also these are original part#'s so there's probably updated numbers - but check with these guys
Equipment Parts Source, Aftermarket, Case, Backhoe, Crawler, Loader, Dozer, Tractor Search results for: 'a51885'

You might also need 4 of the bushings if they're bad (Item#15 on drawing) but EPS doesn't have 'em - yours might only need a cleanup, but I would look deeper before you order.

I'm assuming you don't already have a manual, so a caution - there are a LOT of "manuals" on ebay, most are cd roms or dvd's - some are VERY cheap, but don't waste your money on ANY "on disk" manuals that do NOT SPECIFICALLY say "SEARCHABLE" - those are almost GUARANTEED to be just PICTURES of the original pages - the "searchable" ones have been scanned and THEN OCR'd; this turns those "pictures of words" into TEXT that the Acrobat reader can actually FIND. This makes that method maybe TEN TIMES as useful when you're looking for a key word (I found the hydraulic pump info I posted here with [CTRL] F, pump instead of having to actually READ the whole manual)

Sorry for the semi-rant, I'm just trying to keep OTHERS from paying $20 for something that's nearly worthless.

Anyway, here's the FIRST couple pages you might need, and a couple more... Steve

Oh, and I'd forgotten yours is a 580C - these are for a B, but might help a bit...

 

[BukitCase]

Found the hyd. pump on EPS (again)
Equipment Parts Source, Aftermarket, Case, Backhoe, Crawler, Loader, Dozer, Tractor Case Hydraulic Pump

'Nuther link - pumps, spider, etc
Case Hydraulic Pump | eBay

Seems like I gave more like $380 when I bought mine - also, mine did NOT quite fit (steel gear body, aluminum mounts) - I got everything squeeky clean, but if I started ONE of the two mounting bolts I could NOT get the SECOND one to start no matter WHICH one I started with - EPS claimed they'd never had that problem before (yeah, right) - so I ended up mounting the new pump on my mill, and using a 4-flute end cutting mill cutter to "move the hole" the tiny amount it needed.

Not THAT big a deal, 'cause the pump itself is CENTERED by a "near press fit" between the thru-hole in mounting bracket and a raised section on the back of the pump, so the pump is still CENTERED where it needs to be and all the hoses/tubing fit fine. Still, kinda pissed me off at the time... Steve

(Most of my ramblings are just to warn you NOT to panic if things don't go just right - you're not alone, SOMEBODY's probably already BEEN there :=))