Chains/binders or ratchet straps?

[RidgeHiker]

I am modifying a snowplow to fit on my loader bucket. I have seen bucket mountings held on with chains/binders and load ratchet straps. One or the other seem to work better?
Below are photos of what I am referring to.

 

[mjncad]

Nylon stretches, so I'd go with chains and binders; but I think what you're trying to accomplish with a plow hanging off a bucket is going to be a huge disappointment in operation.

First you have a lot of weight cantilevered a long ways in front of your tractor.

Second is that loader frames really aren't designed for the kind of stress that setup is going to put on them.

Third, unless you put some serious ballast out the back end, your front axle is going to take a lot of strain, and with a light rear end, traction is not going to be optimal.

 

[RidgeHiker]

Why would this put a different stress on the frame than pushing with the bucket alone?

 

[AKfish]

Why would this put a different stress on the frame than pushing with the bucket alone?

Short answer - the length of the lever.

More detailed answer - the added weight of the blade extended significantly further along the axis of the tractor's frame.

Think of a 3lb sledgehammer with a 16 inch handle extended outward with a straight arm.

Now, consider the 3lb sledgehammer with a 32 inch handle extended outward with a straight arm.

Which configuration will exert a greater strain on your extended arm?

AKfish

 

[RickB]

Short answer - the length of the lever.

More detailed answer - the added weight of the blade extended significantly further along the axis of the tractor's frame.

Think of a 3lb sledgehammer with a 16 inch handle extended outward with a straight arm.

Now, consider the 3lb sledgehammer with a 32 inch handle extended outward with a straight arm.

Which configuration will exert a greater strain on your extended arm?

AKfish

Not to mention the lateral forces generated by an angled blade (not common in loader operation) compounded by the aforementioned length of the lever. And the weight removed from the rear axle as the additional weight is added waaay out in front of the FEL bucket edge which will decrease rear traction and add stress to the front axle drive components.

 

[Glen Watkins]

Drop the bucket and mount the plow to a quick attach plate would help some. Do a search here you will find lots of info. Good luck!

 

[Case485Guy]

Just an FYI..
Tie-down straps are made using Polyester not Nylon. Nylon will stretch, Polyester does not.

 

[RidgeHiker]

I still am not clear on a few things:
The lever. If you lift it will add extra stress due to the extra length. At the same time you are not using the plow to lift, but push. If you push straight with a long or short lever it probably comes out pretty much the same. If the blade is not angled this would seem to be the case.

I would imagine that there is less force on the closer in side of an angled blade than the other since it is releasing snow off to the side but I am not sure if that is the case. At any rate, I could see how if the force is unequal and the lever is longer it would magnify the difference. That is the only way the longer lever seems to make a difference???

Since the plow is generally going to be sliding on the ground, with most of the weight supported by the ground, would it really un-weight the rear tires that much?

 

[mwb]

Since the plow is generally going to be sliding on the ground, with most of the weight supported by the ground, would it really un-weight the rear tires that much?

In a straight line, pushing the plow without it angled, and with and evenly distributed load - then no, it won't operate significantly different than having it mounted properly. The problem will be when you want to angle the blade (snow will push your front end around) or at the end of your push when you decide to try to push a pile up and raise the loader. Basically having it mounted like that is a lot less than ideal. If your intention is to only push forward (not angle) then why not just get a wider bucket?

Either remove the bucket to mount it, or mount the blade on the 3pt (you have to drive backwards and obviously won't work if you use a blower).

 

[Patches]

I have used a very similar setup before I got the blower(sometimes even use it now for 1 to 2 inch snow falls).My plow is somewhat lighter than the one pictured(one of those home owners units made in Canada for small pickups/SUVs [Snow Bear]. I've noticed no illl effects on the loader bucket nor the arms. If there has been any damage, it is so minimal as to be insignificant

 

[RidgeHiker]

In a straight line, pushing the plow without it angled, and with and evenly distributed load - then no, it won't operate significantly different than having it mounted properly. The problem will be when you want to angle the blade (snow will push your front end around) or at the end of your push when you decide to try to push a pile up and raise the loader. Basically having it mounted like that is a lot less than ideal. If your intention is to only push forward (not angle) then why not just get a wider bucket?

I do not intend to push without an angle, I was just using that for discussion purposes. We are avoiding the expenses of quick attaches, snow blowers, etc.

 

[mjncad]

Just an FYI..
Tie-down straps are made using Polyester not Nylon. Nylon will stretch, Polyester does not.

Good point; but chains will be better for the OP's purpose.

I still am not clear on a few things:
The lever. If you lift it will add extra stress due to the extra length. At the same time you are not using the plow to lift, but push. If you push straight with a long or short lever it probably comes out pretty much the same. If the blade is not angled this would seem to be the case.

That's all fine and dandy in a perfect world; but now think of it this way. Go get 2 pieces of uncooked spaghetti. Leave one the original length, and break the other one in half, and the remaining piece in half again. Now place the spaghetti on a table with one end against a wall or similar and push with your finger against the opposite end. Which flexes more, the longer pieces of the short piece? Although the spaghetti demonstrates this to an extreme, the concept is the same.

Your lever is being acted on in three dimensions, not just the "Z" axis of lifting.

 

[GolfAddict]

That's all fine and dandy in a perfect world... Although the spaghetti demonstrates this to an extreme, the concept is the same.

I do understand what you are saying.

I'm wondering if anyone has actually wrecked or damaged their loader by using a plow in front of the loader bucket? I see a fair number of threads where people use a plow in this way and do not report any problems (in fact, will testify that they have NOT had any problems.) I also see that BXpanded offers a plow set-up for quick attach to your bucket and I saw a thread where Harry says it's been selling fairly well.

But I also often see where others recommend against doing this as it may be hard on the loader or damage it. But I've never seen anyone say they have actually done this AND wrecked something or done damage.

I'm having a shop weld up a frame for me to use a ATV plow on the front of my bucket, and you guys are making me worry a bit...

 

[TO_Bud]

I would imagine that damage to the loader arms would only happen under a severe event. Something like hitting a buried curb or frozen rock hiding under the snow while moving the snow pile. Something that might kick the tractor to the side with all that force put on arms with an angled blade. I have a 7 foot blade on my tractor and I used to use it on the loader with a QA plate. It would not push well with the joystick in float because the weight of the blade and the loader arms would push it down hard and I would lose wheel traction. I would therefore use the loader to hold a lot of the blade weight, hence they stress pointed out above. I have since fabricated a frame for the blade that attaches to the tractor frame and I only use the loader arms to raise the blade via a chain at the end of a push. Other than that the blade sits on the ground by its' own weight. I can push a lot more snow now without losing traction and the blade is closer to the tractor allowing me to see over the blade better. This is a much better way to do it in my experience.

 

[RidgeHiker]

I would imagine that damage to the loader arms would only happen under a severe event. Something like hitting a buried curb or frozen rock hiding under the snow while moving the snow pile. Something that might kick the tractor to the side with all that force put on arms with an angled blade. I have a 7 foot blade on my tractor and I used to use it on the loader with a QA plate. It would not push well with the joystick in float because the weight of the blade and the loader arms would push it down hard and I would lose wheel traction. I would therefore use the loader to hold a lot of the blade weight, hence they stress pointed out above. I have since fabricated a frame for the blade that attaches to the tractor frame and I only use the loader arms to raise the blade via a chain at the end of a push. Other than that the blade sits on the ground by its' own weight. I can push a lot more snow now without losing traction and the blade is closer to the tractor allowing me to see over the blade better. This is a much better way to do it in my experience.

I can picture that the weight of the blade on the ground would unweight the front tires. How would it effect the back tires?

 

[Kioti guy]

I would imagine that damage to the loader arms would only happen under a severe event.
Plowing is a severe event Period.
Prior to getting my first tractor several years ago I used to plow with a x-Canadian military Dodge d-300 .it was fitted with a 8" Meyer power angle plow. This was and is a purpose built well designed piece of equipment.
Most of the plow main harness is fabricated with 1/2 steel, the mount with triangulated and gusseted 3/8 steel very heavily built .
As well built as that harness was designed and built , Over the course of plowing with it for 5 years I bent broke or twisted every single part of it ....................repeatedly.......... Even if you plan to be " gentle" don't forget that the forces exerted when plowing are incredible...................Craig

 

[RidgeHiker]

I would imagine that damage to the loader arms would only happen under a severe event.
Plowing is a severe event Period.
Prior to getting my first tractor several years ago I used to plow with a x-Canadian military Dodge d-300 .it was fitted with a 8" Meyer power angle plow. This was and is a purpose built well designed piece of equipment.
Most of the plow main harness is fabricated with 1/2 steel, the mount with triangulated and gusseted 3/8 steel very heavily built .
As well built as that harness was designed and built , Over the course of plowing with it for 5 years I bent broke or twisted every single part of it ....................repeatedly.......... Even if you plan to be " gentle" don't forget that the forces exerted when plowing are incredible...................Craig

I agree that plowing creates substantial stresses, but comparing tractor plowing to a truck may not be an accurate comparison:
1. Tractors are made to push, among other things. Trucks are made to carry/pull.
2. Tractors have much more torque at lower speeds. You have less need to bash into the snow at times to get it moving.
3. Trucks only have a plow (I an not bringing snow blowers into this which is a whole other dynamic). If that is all there is you have to make it work irrespective of the stresses to the equipment. If it is too hard to push the snow the tractor could use the bucket to lift it or a back blade to scrape it (we have both). Less or no bashing.
4. Tractors are designed to maximize traction, hence the name, though I imagine there are circumstances where a truck has more traction???

For clearing a long road with not a lot of snow and plenty of space to push it, in a shorter period of time trucks are great.

 

[RickB]

I agree that plowing creates substantial stresses, but comparing tractor plowing to a truck may not be an accurate comparison:
1. Tractors are made to push, among other things. Trucks are made to carry/pull.
2. Tractors have much more torque at lower speeds. You have less need to bash into the snow at times to get it moving.
3. Trucks only have a plow (I an not bringing snow blowers into this which is a whole other dynamic). If that is all there is you have to make it work irrespective of the stresses to the equipment. If it is too hard to push the snow the tractor could use the bucket to lift it or a back blade to scrape it (we have both). Less or no bashing.
4. Tractors are designed to maximize traction, hence the name, though I imagine there are circumstances where a truck has more traction???

For clearing a long road with not a lot of snow and plenty of space to push it, in a shorter period of time trucks are great.

Trucks have frame mounted plows. Frame mounted plows on tractors work very, very well. Loader mounted plow's operator satisfaction is among other things, inversely porportional to the distance between the front axle and cutting edge.
Go ahead and hang your plow from the front of your bucket. You will either figure out what we are trying to tell you, or you will get lucky and be happy.

 

[RidgeHiker]

Trucks have frame mounted plows. Frame mounted plows on tractors work very, very well. Loader mounted plow's operator satisfaction is among other things, inversely porportinal to the distance between the front axle and cutting edge.
Go ahead and hang your plow from the front of your bucket. You will either figure out what we are trying to tell you, or you will get lucky and be happy.

I agree, I will not know until I do it and I do not really know what it will be like. I am not trying to defend bucket mounted plows, I have had no experience. I do have some experience with truck plows, etc. and this is a discussion.

My actual initial question was not about whether it was a good idea but if anyone had opinions on chain/binders vs ratchet straps to hold it on. Any thoughts anyone???

 

[RickB]

I agree, I will not know until I do it and I do not really know what it will be like. I am not trying to defend bucket mounted plows, I have had no experience. I do have some experience with truck plows, etc. and this is a discussion.

My actual initial question was not about whether it was a good idea but if anyone had opinions on chain/binders vs ratchet straps to hold it on. Any thoughts anyone???

Chains, as others have indicated. No question on that one. Chains with ratchet binders to be specific.