Clearing 3 acrs young forest for meadow

[mulchie]

Hello, all --
I'm new here and found the site because I need advice before clearing about 3 acres of young forest. This is for our residence, so we want the end result to be appealing! This is meadow, not lawn. We are advised to remove stumps with a grinder/mulcher to preserve soil integrity, but that may not be feasible economically or in terms of the scope of work required.
I've read other posts here on similar subjects, but have a few specific questions. The result is going to be a radical change to the landscape, and I've heard a few horror stories.

Basics: This is a sloped spot, about 10-15 degrees grade +/-. Mostly new growth. Some older hardwoods, some of which we will retain.
Once we clear and plant we will bush hog once a year.
We've contracted this for $15k.
A Logger will clear the site. Then, organic debris will be raked, burned or buried onsite. Stumps (mostly 4-6", some large 24-32" pine) will be pulled and buried in trenches or pushed over a bank, compacted and buried. We may haul some stumps off site, but this could add cost and we are very cost sensitive.
Rough grade will be established by an excavator.
Next step will be moving large rocks and "back dragging" with a bulldozer. Finish level and then seeded w/ combo legumes, grasses and forbs, and mulched w/ hay.


My concerns are these:
TOPSOIL RETENTION
TOPSOIL COMPACTION
wisdom of burying stumps?
Creation of windrows?

I've talked to some folks who are very opposed to the heavy machinery approach and I'm genuinely concerned about destroying years of topsoil. But we really don't know best practices. We are working with a great guy and he seems flexible. Mostly, we want to be sure we are doing this responsibly, esp. considering it is a sloped site. I'm mostly asking these questions so I feel more peace as we embark.

 

[Western]

Sounds like a good plan, but if you want a hands on professional, FREE advice, call your local Agriculture agent. The state deals with this all the time with highway banks, bridge heads and the like and they will know best about your local conditions.

 

[NorTracNY]

I'd agree and call the local extention. Also if you so cost sensitive, why not just do it over a few years on your own? If you slowly clear, you won't have to worry as much about some disasterous soil problem. Is 15K reasonable? I guess I don't understand the scope, but it seems a lot for 3 acres of clearing.

 

[deezler]

mulchie, curious if you obtained multiple quotes for all this work? $15k does strike me as an awful lot of money, especially as you say you are cost sensitive.

I was eager to click on your thread link though, as my wife and I are in a similar situation. We just acquired a bit larger parcel of local land (18ac) because the deal was too good to pass up. But we are also extremely cash sensitive right now, so our plan is not to build right away. But, in the name of saving cash, we picked up a nice 30 HP tractor (see avatar) and I do hope to do almost all the clearing and grading work myself. I understand that with a smaller (read: more afforadble for us) tractor, that this will take a lot longer to do. But I have (some) time... just not money.

Some questions:
- why do you need to clear all 3 acres right away? Why not preserve some more natural borders and trees to your lot and only clear a 1 to 1.5 acre homesite for now? You could always do the rest slowly over time, yourself, saving a bundle of cash.
- "organic debris will be raked, burned, or buried onsite". These are pretty different strategies. How are the burn laws in your area? How close are your nieghbors? Burning 3 acres worth of vegetation is a lot of fire.
- You said you would brush hog it every year. Do you already have a tractor? If so tell us what you're working with already.

Using (very) heavy equipment to do all this work is certainly going to impact the top soil and mush it around a bit. But unless they get careless on the steeper slopes, do you really expect it all to dissapear or erode away? It shouldn't automatically get "destroyed". Erosion management should be paramount in any good landscaper's practices. In my area, any substantial clearing or re-grading of land requires "erosion control permits" in the first place.

But overall, welcome to the forum, and give us all what we really want - post pics! lots of them! And keep us updated on your progress. There's nothing worse than folks who start threads about really interesting topics and then dissapear and leave us all wanting more.

 

[deezler]

Forgot to add, how much re-grading do you really plan to do? Substantial re-shaping of your topography is indeed very likely to end up burying your best top soil. Consider integrating your home design into the landscape, instead of the other way around. 10-15% slopes sounds ideal for a nice walk-out style home on the hillside, with a nice elevated deck and views, etc. Hopefully only minor re-grading for a driveway and small front yard, etc.

Good luck!

 

[mulchie]

Thanks for these responses.
We are in no way prepared to do this work ourselves! I know I'm hitchhiking on a site with a lot of can-do folks with skills, and TRACTORS, but we don't have the equipment, time or know-how, so I came here just to tap the brains in an expert community! I hope you don't mind.

Hard to tell about the 15k. The man doing the work is the property seller and the overall price made sense to us. We got some other bids that were even higher, and we may end up, we hope, below this total, especially if we end up clearing less than 3. And we trust and like the guy. As to time, since we can't do the work ourselves, we are just going to have it done, and then focus on house etc. We will not do serious regrading. The land contours are pleasing and we don't want to remake a place that we find quite glorious. We just want to open up.

What is an average cost per acre of logging, clearing, stumping, grading, seeding and mulching?

Costs sound like they range widely. Here's a chat from 2009: http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=184463

 

[deezler]

We don't mind at all munchie, that's what this site is for. By sharing your experiences here and asking questions, others can learn from you in the future. Ah, the wonderful interwebs. Do note from my own low post count that I am a newb here too, a pretty young guy and certainly no expert of landscaping and earth moving. So do take my comments with a grain of salt. Hopefully other uses here (many of whom are professionals) will correct me if I mis-speak.

So the man who sold you the parcel in the first place offered to do the work? Is he licensed and insured? That's good that you like and trust him, but do you have any evidence of his skills? (i.e. past projects, or other home sites that he has done this kind of work on?)

Glad to hear you are not doing serious re-grading. I think your soil will be fine. But in that case, it is definitely true that smaller machines will impact the land less.

Do you have any water on the property? ponds, creeks, low spots, etc?

I am also glad to hear you planning for a meadow instead of a generic, monoculture, aritifical lawn. It truly baffles me sometimes to drive around this country of ours and see how people want to make their entire properties as uniform, boring, sterile and un-natural as possible. Plus why would you want to mow so much freaking lawn every week!?!? And bomb it out with chemical pesticides, heribcides, and fertilize it with imported petroleum? WHY?!? Natural meadows and forests are just so much more beautiful to behold, and better for the local wildlife, overall ecosystem, and health of the planet (end rant)

 

[MarkV]

This is one of those things where prices are going to be all over the place based on where you live, terrain, soil type and what is actually being done.

Does the logger keep the value of the trees removed? Do you know the value, if any, of the timber. That is really a cost above the $15k if the timber is being sold. When you say the stumps will be pulled does that mean with an excavator actually pulling each stump or a dozer pushing them and the top soil away. It is not uncommon here for stumps to be buried or a ravin filled in with them and then covered. Make sure it isn't anyplace you might want a structure in the future. The biggest problem would be some settling over a long period of time. Does the seeding include soil amendments needed as shown by a soil test? Here are soil is so acidic that without lime added you are wasting money on seed. Your case may well be much different.

I'll repeat others advice and suggest you contact the extension agent for your area. UVM Extension They have a wealth of information and experience with local conditions.

Welcome to the forum.

MarkV

 

[mulchie]

Answer to querries:

1) He's licensed and insured. He did this work on his own land next door and did a fine job there. This parcel, being sloped, has some different challenges, but we are comfortable that he's a professional and knows what he's doing.
2) We'll be taking soil tests to determine lime & fert. My biggest worry is topsoil health, though, and that does sound like it's going to take a pounding. We are going to keep all heavy equip well away from the dripline on the larger trees since compaction there can kill a tree 15-20 years down the road.
3) Meadow! Yes. I'm no fan of the monoculture. So we are exploring a mix of smooth bromegrass - 8 lbs/a, Timothy (late heading variety) - 4 lbs/a
Alfalfa (late flowering) - 6 lbs/a, Red clover - 4 lbs/a, and a quick germinating annual rye for soil retention. We want to attract birdlife and create a sustainable meadow environment for our smaller neighbors ('cept the moose, they are bigger).

logger is using trees for pulp. We are paying him a very modest fee for that aspect of the clearing. Included in the 15k total.

 

[Western]

Answer to querries:

1) He's licensed and insured. He did this work on his own land next door and did a fine job there. This parcel, being sloped, has some different challenges, but we are comfortable that he's a professional and knows what he's doing.
2) We'll be taking soil tests to determine lime & fert. My biggest worry is topsoil health, though, and that does sound like it's going to take a pounding. We are going to keep all heavy equip well away from the dripline on the larger trees since compaction there can kill a tree 15-20 years down the road.
2) Meadow! Yes. I'm no fan of the monoculture. So we are exploring a mix of smooth bromegrass - 8 lbs/a, Timothy (late heading variety) - 4 lbs/a
Alfalfa (late flowering) - 6 lbs/a, Red clover - 4 lbs/a, and a quick germinating annual rye for soil retention. We want to attract birdlife and create a sustainable meadow environment for our smaller neighbors ('cept the moose, they are bigger).

logger is using trees for pulp. We are paying him a very modest fee for that aspect of the clearing. Included in the 15k total.

1. Sounds good if your good with it.
2 and 3. Again, I would stress the Ag agent, it would be like tapping into the Biology dept at a big university FOR FREE

If it where me, I would think about it very hard, once the dozer shows up, hundreds of years of trees will be gone in a day and hard to replace. Sometimes mother nature has done a pretty good job.