CT230 backhoe?

[galaxie428]

I have been thinking about how nice it would be to have a hoe around the house , maybe I should clarify, a backhoe. I have been looking at used mini excavators a little and they are a little pricey even with some hours on them. I can think of a lot of things that I would use them for but is it worth $15k to me? Right now it is not but as I start doing some of the tasks, it sure is!

How many of you that have the 2xx models have backhoes for them? What are your opinions of them? Do they have sufficient digging power? I have some rather large trees that I have cut down that I would like to dig out. I also have some concrete footing that needs dug out along with several other small jobs.

Also, how do they attach? Are they 3pt hitch or do they have a frame? How easily can they be taken off? I use my tractor for mowing, tilling, stuff like that so I don't want something that takes me 30 min to take off.

I know that is a lot of questions so I appreciate any insight you might have.

 

[IslandTractor]

A 6.5 or 7.5 ft BH is certainly a useful implement on a CT230/CK30. The tractor is big enough and has plenty of power to run a BH that size. Might even run an 8 foot BH given the hefty construction of the tractor.

I don't know who builds BHs for Bobcat but obviously a Kioti KB2475 would fit (designed for the identical CK30). Alternatively a Woods BH70x or maybe 80x would also be a good match. I assume you would use a subframe and those are available from Kioti/Woods if not directly from Bobcat.

I had a 6.5ft BH on a CK20 and it was a very effective tool.

 

[VictorW]

I have the Kioti KB2375, 7.5 footer, on my Kioti CK30hst. Similar tractor to yours. It's a frame mount and I can install or remove it under 10 minutes. I've seen the 3pt mounted setups, but everything I read and heard was that they put a good amount of force/stress on the 3pt attachment points of the tractor. I know I can drag my tractor around with my bh if I wanted to or lift the back end off the ground. It has a good amount of digging power for it's size but can't compare to some of the mini excavators that I've operated which are made just for that purpose. I can do the same work as a mini but it just takes me longer. I've dug out a few stumps from 8 to 12 inch trunk sized trees. The dirt is not the problem but rather trying to bust the roots close to the trunk. I've had to go out 4 feet or so to snap the roots. They seem to be stronger than a similar sized limb of the tree. Ditches aren't a problem unless you come across a big rock. There, I just dig around both sides of the rock then lift it out. The Woods BH80x would be a good fit and the tractor could handle it. I don't know what Bobcat offers but I believe it's not the Kioti model painted white. I would definately look for a 7.5 to 8 footer but I think a new one is around the $7k range. I paid $5.5k for new five years ago. I hope this helps a little and if you have a particular question(s), I will try to answer if I know from my experiences with my bh.

 

[Gittyup]

I have a Kioti CK25 with a Rhino brand 7.5' backhoe, 18" bucket, on it. It is frame mount. It works good with my loaded tires and homemade outrigger pads. Goes on and off easy as long as done on flat, solid ground. There are photos of a big maple stump I removed when I first got it in the Kioti photo section.

For sure, it's not as efficient as an excavator. It's great for earth, but if you have a lot of stumps, I'd suggest renting an excavator to do that because it is hard on the equipment and takes a fair amount of time.

Anyway, I've done a lot of digging with it (~200 hours of BH time to date) - several stumps, bushes, and shrubs, septic line, gutter drains, retaining walls, culvert pipes, culvert ditches, gas lines, 500 gallon propane tank burial, etc. Used it as a crane to place concrete statues, rocks, and big concrete blocks.

Very useful, and cost today is $1000 per foot of hoe as a rule of thumb. Storage is another consideration. The frame and hoe are pretty big when off the tractor (~10' long, 5' wide).

 

[galaxie428]

Thanks for the info guys. I was looking online last night at a woods BX80 & BX90 just as something to start looking at. The BX90 says it works with 30-70 HP tractors. I would be on the very low end of that so I am not sure how that would affect the performance. Any idea?

It sounds like they run off of the tractors PTO and contain their own pump if I read that correctly.

I was trying to compare it to a Bobcat 331 mini as that is around the size I was looking at. Of course the 331 had higher specs but like you guys mentioned, that is what they were made for. But, the specs of the BX90 was not too far off.

Can someone tell me the difference between a dipperstick force and bucket digging force? I guess I don't know what a dipperstick is.

The 331 digging force was rated at 6866 and the BX90 was 5070. That is only around 1500lbs. Are we really talking that much difference?

I would really like to have a mini but like I mentioned, I would be looking at over twice the cost (for used mini) of a hoe for my tractor and it would be another machine to maintain and more importantly pay for.

I think for what I would use it for, the hoe is the logical way to go. The only thing I don't like is the fact that you have to get off the hoe to move the tractor. However, when comparing that to digging with a shovel I think I could suck it up.

 

[IslandTractor]

The Woods BH90x is too big for your tractor. The issue is not just HP but size. I have the 90x on my Kioti DK40se which is the CT440.

Get the 80x, it's a better match.

 

[Gittyup]

Your BC has enough hydraulics that a separate pump using your PTO isn't necessary. You should be able to buy the woods without the PTO pump, then add a set of rear remotes to your tractor to run it. The 90 is too big for your tractor's weight/wheelbase. The best way to go is to talk to your dealer.

Dipper force is the force applied by the pivot point where it connects to the tractor, I think. Any force greater than what would lift your tractor, here, is wasted because beyond that you are just lifting the tractor and aren't able to put the extra force to work.

Your main power when digging is in the bucket curl. And since pressure is force/Area, the smaller the bucket (or even just a tooth) the less area and therefore the more pressure is applied to the ground/root/rock etc. That's why root cutting attachments work better than does a big bucket. I like my 18" bucket, but would like to have a 12" for faster root cutting and narrower trenches . So, think about 2 buckets when you buy. Only thing is that narrower buckets are more prone to material sticking inside when working in wet clay. Not a problem with my 18" though.

 

[galaxie428]

Thanks for the explaination Gittyup, that makes sense. Thanks IslandTractor & VictorW for your input also.

I noticed you guys mentioned Woods and Rhino, are there any others I should look into as a comparison or are those the top two BH producers?

 

[Gittyup]

I don't know that these are the top 2 or anything like that. Both companies have a good reputation for making good products. I'm sure there are others as well. I still think your best bet to minimize risk of integration is to work with your dealer. Just as I'm sure that whatever BC recommends must be a good product. Else they wouldn't risk their reputation by using it. Connector matching, hose sizes, and remote hydraulic hookup configurations/options are best discussed with someone that knows both your tractor and the backhoes.

 

[IslandTractor]

Your main power when digging is in the bucket curl. And since pressure is force/Area, the smaller the bucket (or even just a tooth) the less area and therefore the more pressure is applied to the ground/root/rock etc. That's why root cutting attachments work better than does a big bucket. I like my 18" bucket, but would like to have a 12" for faster root cutting and narrower trenches . So, think about 2 buckets when you buy. Only thing is that narrower buckets are more prone to material sticking inside when working in wet clay. Not a problem with my 18" though.

I also have an 18 inch bucket which is a good all purpose size. I agree with Gittyup that root cutting is sometimes an issue but I doubt a smaller bucket would make much difference. In my experience the soil around the root is usually pretty well pulverized by the time I am working on cutting through a big root and therefore only the bucket teeth on the root are doing any work. I don't usually get all the teeth on the root so I don't know if a narrower bucket would make much difference. A single tooth ripper however would be great but I beleve the physics show that those get their extra power from being shorter not narrower than a standard bucket.

I have coveted a single tooth root ripper for years but have never found anyone who sells one for anything less than a medium sized excavator (except for Brotek who makes them only for the BX).

 

[Slackdaddy]

Woods does not make a sub frame for the Bobcat line of tractors.
The subframe bolts to the loader, they only make a subframe that bolts to the Kioti loader. That said, a few hours of fabbing to modifly the woods sub frame and it should bolt up. I looked closley at the kioti and rhino (Bobcat) loaders a few years ago, Putting the woods subframe on the Bobcat looked do-able with a little work.
BUT - Bobcat is funny about the warranty, I was "told" any modifications or non-Bobcat attachments voids the warranty, even welding on bucket hooks or loading the tires.

 

[bird1968]

I have coveted a single tooth root ripper for years but have never found anyone who sells one for anything less than a medium sized excavator (except for Brotek who makes them only for the BX).

FYI We do make them for multiple size/brand, email us bro-tek@hotmail.com

 

[VictorW]

I agree with the others that the Woods BX90 would be to much for your tractor as it would be for my Kioti CK30hst. The extra weight and force would probably be to much for our tractor size and something would probably let go under the added stress. Islands DK40 is a much bigger and heavier built tractor that can handle the 90. The 80 would be a good fit, if it could mount up or something similar in a Rhino brand. If your warranty is as mentioned, then you may have to stick with the Bobcat bh. Their loaders seem to do fine so I would think their bh would be just as good. Your tractor, like mine, has a 12 gpm pump and is plenty to run the bh from a set of rear remotes. That's how mine is set up and it works well. I don't see the need or expense for a pto driven pump just for the bh.
Not to argue with another member but a bh has bucket force, the curling of the bucket, dipper force, the arm connected to the bucket, and then the boom, the other arm connected at the botton of the bh closest to the tractor. The dipper is what you mainly use to pull back towards you while the boom is mainly raising.
For my stump digging I have a 9 inch bucket. For me, it makes it easier to dig around the roots and stump. I've dug trenches with it but it can plug up at times in heavy or clay dirt. It gets old shaking the bucket everytime to get it to empty but it does make a nice narrow trench for pipe and such. For all around digging, I use an 18 inch bucket.

 

[IslandTractor]

Not to argue with another member but a bh has bucket force, the curling of the bucket, dipper force, the arm connected to the bucket, and then the boom, the other arm connected at the botton of the bh closest to the tractor. The dipper is what you mainly use to pull back towards you while the boom is mainly raising.

I find that it is the bucket curl that tends to be most useful in actually breaking roots. In practice I guess I tend to both curl and pull on the dipper simultaneously most often but with stubborn roots I tend to wiggle the bucket underneath the root and then curl using the ground on the back of the bucket to help create a wedge like effect so the bucket can cut the root.

 

[VictorW]

I find that it is the bucket curl that tends to be most useful in actually breaking roots. In practice I guess I tend to both curl and pull on the dipper simultaneously most often but with stubborn roots I tend to wiggle the bucket underneath the root and then curl using the ground on the back of the bucket to help create a wedge like effect so the bucket can cut the root.

The bucket curl does seem to be the strongest and works great when used as you suggested. I've even pushed the dirt under the bucket while curling if the root is very stubborn. I was just pointing out the main parts of the bh as was questioned and not necessarily their best uses.

 

[galaxie428]

Thanks for all your help and suggestions. I will talk with my BC salesperson about their BH along with comparing it to others. I did notice by just doing my own checking that the specs on the Woods BX80 is better than that of the BC 7TB. For instance, the bucket digging force is 3780 on the woods and 2827 on the BC. The Woods has a deeper digging depth also. Of course those are just numbers and there may be no difference in performance.

But as you guys mentioned, it may come down to warranty issues. I will just have to talk to BC to see what they say.

Thanks again for your help.

 

[IslandTractor]

I did notice by just doing my own checking that the specs on the Woods BX80 is better than that of the BC 7TB. For instance, the bucket digging force is 3780 on the woods and 2827 on the BC. The Woods has a deeper digging depth also. Of course those are just numbers and there may be no difference in performance.

Numbers like those actually do predict performance and a 33% increase would definitely be noticable.

The Woods could be a little bigger (just guessing but the Woods is a 8ft BH while the BC7TB sounds like it might be a 7footer.) Compare the 70x Woods to the BC7TB. Or, perhaps Woods may be quoting their bucket power position specs(some Woods loaders (90x definitely) have two positions for the bucket, one power and one regular. You can get more power as a tradeoff for ?reach with a second mounting spot). I dig up a lot of stumps so leave my 90x in the power position.

 

[qed-cat225]

I have limited knowledge on the backhoe but make sure you know what attachments you want to use etc cause I know the backhoe from conflicts with other BC attachments such as mid mower or front blower

 

[wallace]

The OEM backhoe is a Rhino backhoe painted white and branded Bobcat.
It is a 7'6" digging depth.
Bobcat lists the 7tb being the biggest they will put on.
Rhino list that you can put a 85 on the Kioti Ck25,27,30,35 and we all know what that means.
Woods will allow you to put either a 70 or 80X on.
Warranty????
That is up to your dealer.
I have a 55hp Kioti a my shop and it has a Woods 90X on it. It broke 2 bolts and one of the bolts happen to crack the rear Axel housing. Woods paid me to fix everything.
Like I said it comes down to the dealer.
You and your dealer need to be smart enough to know and admit what cause the failure the manufacture of the tractor or the manufacture of the attachment. And more than likely the most important one I almost left out...The operator!

 

[galaxie428]

The OEM backhoe is a Rhino backhoe painted white and branded Bobcat.
It is a 7'6" digging depth.
Bobcat lists the 7tb being the biggest they will put on.
Rhino list that you can put a 85 on the Kioti Ck25,27,30,35 and we all know what that means.
Woods will allow you to put either a 70 or 80X on.

So I am really not comparing apples to apples being the Rhino/BC BH is a 7'6" and the 80X is a 8' BH. Does the digging depth matter as far as bucket digging force because there is a significant difference there?

It sounds like Rhino's 85 is somewhat comparable to the Woods 90x. They both say they are compatible with a 30hp tractor however, most everyone says they are too big.

I am not against a Rhino/BC BH and do not have experience with Rhino or Woods but the specs on the Woods is quite a bit more as I mentioned above. And, a guy has the Woods BH80X on EBay for only $52xx. That does not include the subframe which was quoted for an additional $9xx. That is a pretty good price compared to the quotes I have gotten so far on either the Woods or the Rhino.

In talking with tech support at Woods though, they say they do not make a subframe for a Bobcat tractor even though I had two other sales guys quoting me a subframe. Maybe they are having someone else manufature it?

Rick - You have experience with both the Kioti and the BC so what is your take on whether a subframe mount for a Kioti (which Woods makes) would fit on the BC with little to no modification? Slackdaddy mentioned above that it is close.