Dealling with Mud - to gravel or not

[Ron JD670]

Welll one of my first projects was partially done when it decided to start raining here in Sothern Oregon. I widened the access to my pasture next to my shed to accomodate the new tractor moving material and stall sweepings. The work was in part also needed to keep water from migrating into the hay storage and parking area for the tractor.
After using the FEL to remove material and the box scraper to level, fill in, and slope the new area for water run off - a pretty good job for a newby. I drove over the newly leveled ground a number of time and wetted it in the hopes of getting some compating before the rain. I planned on putting gravel down also before the rain but could not get it delivered yet. So I threw some straw down. The original access walking area is still good/firm in part because it is under the eves of the barn and I only made a light pass with BS to blend in with the new added path. However, the new area I worked has turned into a red clay slip-n-slide ranging from a half inch to two inches deep. The straw helps but has not stablized it. I have avoided taking the tractor over the area as I have heard you can create a mud bath if you are not careful.

I am planning on laying some gravel on the firm stable area, but have no idea what to do with the slip-n-slide. So the question, should I dump gravel on the area and try to spread it? Or leave it alone.

Also I still need to scratch at the red clay (new tooth bar on order) just above this area to prep for a couple post holes to support a wall of rail road ties. Should I abandon this project until spring? :confused2:

Thank you

 

[Case485Guy]

I dont know if this will help, but I had a similar problem in a set of cattle working pens. different areas would hold water, stay muddy/slippery for a while after a rain. I tilled the area up, added cement(not the quick crete, just plain Portland Cement) and tilled in then watered it in. Has stayed hard for several yrs now and no mud in those areas. I also used this method to fix a sink hole @ work in a caliche pad. On that one I dug down with a back hoe, lined the hole with liner used for when pouring foundations back filled with crushed concrete(cheaper than caliche here) and mixed bags of cement as we went.Watered in and that patch has held for almost 2 yrs now with no signs of failure yet. Might try this method with the gravel? Check this link out, its where I got the idea.
Cement & Concrete Basics: Soil-Cement | Portland Cement Association (PCA)

 

[moored4]

I dont know if this will help, but I had a similar problem in a set of cattle working pens. different areas would hold water, stay muddy/slippery for a while after a rain. I tilled the area up, added cement(not the quick crete, just plain Portland Cement) and tilled in then watered it in. Has stayed hard for several yrs now and no mud in those areas. I also used this method to fix a sink hole @ work in a caliche pad. On that one I dug down with a back hoe, lined the hole with liner used for when pouring foundations back filled with crushed concrete(cheaper than caliche here) and mixed bags of cement as we went.Watered in and that patch has held for almost 2 yrs now with no signs of failure yet. Might try this method with the gravel? Check this link out, its where I got the idea.
Cement & Concrete Basics: Soil-Cement | Portland Cement Association (PCA)

That's a interesting concept! I might call them and see if it will work in high humas type soils!

 

[muddstopper]

Since you are just talking about a path and not a whole pasture, you might want to consider the frenchdrain approach. Basicly, you dig a ditch, throw in a preforated pipe, and backfill with washed stone. You just need to make sure the pipe end is lower than the area you are trying to keep dry. Water will seep thru the washed stone, into the pipe and drain out the other end. Actaully, this concept will work for a pasture to dry up swampy areas, as long as you use a long enought pipe to reach a lower area than what you are trying to keep drained.

 

[Ron JD670]

Since you are just talking about a path and not a whole pasture, you might want to consider the frenchdrain approach. Basicly, you dig a ditch, throw in a preforated pipe, and backfill with washed stone. You just need to make sure the pipe end is lower than the area you are trying to keep dry. Water will seep thru the washed stone, into the pipe and drain out the other end. Actaully, this concept will work for a pasture to dry up swampy areas, as long as you use a long enought pipe to reach a lower area than what you are trying to keep drained.

Muddstopper

Great handle for this question. The french drain is my ultimate solution, if I can not divert drainage hire up the slope which definately needs to wait for next spring or I won't get the truck out of the back yard. Also I plan on getting the ditcher out here after I get the walls in place and this earth moving done as well as a couple other projects so I can do all the ditching at one time. Including running an electric extention line and water line to the barn/shed. I did not want to be sraping and dragging dirt over a new drain as it will reduce the effectiveness from the start especially with this fine clay soil I have here.

Thank you for the ideas

 

[Soundguy]

if it's a area you will travel alot and want to mor eor less permanently stabilize, I'd look into soil cement..



soundguy

 

[muddstopper]

You mentioned setting post to hold a crosstie wall. This will work, up to a point. Just how high a wall are you going to build. Anything over 6ft high should be engineered. Draineage out of the wall and the backfill it is going to support will probably also be necessary. Backfill has a habit of absorbing lots of water. The backfill will become saturated and the weight could overcome the support the wall is supposed to give. This could result in the wall leaning outward or even falling over. Depending on height of wall, you might need to add several deadman ties to tie the wall into the backfield. This could easily double the number of ties needed to build your wall. Simply driving readbar thru the ties into the ground isnt enough. I have seen xtie walls only 3 or 4 ties high start to lean after only a year ot two because of not being supported properly. Without looking at what you are trying to do, i cant make any recommendations as to what you might need to do, but I have built hundreds of walls out of xties and pressure treated lumber and have found improper drainage and improper support to be commonplace with parttime experts trying to make a quick buck. Nothing worse than having to tearout a wall and rebuild it because someone was trying to save a buck thinking they knew what they where doing. Its a lot cheaper to do it right the first time.

 

[Ron JD670]

Thank you for the comments regarding the retaining wall. I have been concerned about the points you raised and the possibility of it ultimately leaning or falling over. I have posted pictures (if I've done it properly) as part of this post. You can see more in my album Project 1 and pictures of my tractor showing the progress of the project.

The tractor is parked on the crown of the slope so water draining towards the barn/shed and either breaks in front of the tractor or behind the tractor. Behind the tractor it drops about 2.5 ft to the gate and the left (open) side of the shed. During extreme rain we have running water flowing around the shed (once every 2 to 3 yrs). In the past I have had to trenched by hand to prevent water inundating the open shed area on left behind the tractor(goat stalls and hay storage).
The other picture shows a tight shot of the primary excavation. Stakes with pink twine marking back side of the walls . The walls will form an open L with the base of the L about 6 feet and the vertical of the L about 8 feet. I plan to auger a post hole 2.5 feet deep next to the gate post and place a Railroad tie upright on a gravel base and then pour concrete. At that point the soil behind the wall is 24 inches above the working grade. (3 ties high). To the left about 6 feet I'm going to install a second RR tie as a corner post ? if you can see the string lines they cross at this corner). At this point it is 36 inches above working grade (4 or 5 ties). I have some 2 inch heavy angle Iron I was planning lagging to the upright posts/RR ties. Before I drop the approx 5.5 ft horizontal RR ties in behind the angle iron I was going to place a bed of gravel 3 to 4 inches deep beneath the first RR tie to allow water to perk from behind the wall. I was also going to line the back side of the RR ties with 6 mil plastic. Then I was going to back fill with gravel. Although I was also debating about lining the bank with plastic and backfilling with gravel between the plastic and up to the RR ties. Not sure which would be more effective long term.
I Plan on using the left corner post for the first leg of the wall to support four 8 foot RR ties to form a wall to the left (off angle from the gate and first leg of the wall to form the vertical in the open L) . You may notice the Doug Fir tree in one of the pictures This tree is determining the angle and distance for this second portion of the wall. I plan to end this wall with another vertical RR tie and possibly 2X angle iron. I may also run a third portion of the wail on up the yard and tie into to steps (to be installed on a later project) onto the lawn area. Or start a stacked rock wall, which was my original Idea for a wall as I have 4.5 acres of rocks here. I figured the rail road ties would be a faster and easier on my back and fingers rather than move 100 plus rocks.
I am going to have a tree professional come and look over the trees around the house and get a opinion about leaving that Doug Fir. They can grow to 4 plus feet in diameter. This ultimately will push over the wall. My wife does not want to cut anything down (even the widow makers:laughing.

I appreciate your comments, suggestions, and questions:confused2:

 

[zonta223]

I dont know if this will help, but I had a similar problem in a set of cattle working pens. different areas would hold water, stay muddy/slippery for a while after a rain. I tilled the area up, added cement(not the quick crete, just plain Portland Cement) and tilled in then watered it in. Has stayed hard for several yrs now and no mud in those areas. I also used this method to fix a sink hole @ work in a caliche pad. On that one I dug down with a back hoe, lined the hole with liner used for when pouring foundations back filled with crushed concrete(cheaper than caliche here) and mixed bags of cement as we went.Watered in and that patch has held for almost 2 yrs now with no signs of failure yet. Might try this method with the gravel? Check this link out, its where I got the idea.
Cement & Concrete Basics: Soil-Cement | Portland Cement Association (PCA)

+1
Used this on what was a virtually unusable driveway in wet weather. Turned it into an all weather track needing no maintenance.
If you have a cement plant in the area ring and ask about BCB or BB cement (bulk cementatious cement or backfill binder) . It is used for back fill in mines and for road base. Is a lot cheaper than normal cement.