Diagnostics

   / Diagnostics #1  

wkelley70

New member
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Messages
4
Tractor
Case VA
How does one diagnose engine problems with Kioti tractors? If the check engine light comes on with my RAM truck, I can use my phone and a $20 code reader to get the error codes. Is this possible with Kioti without spending thousands of dollars on diagnostic software and hardware? Is the hardware and software even available to anyone other than dealer?
 
   / Diagnostics #2  
Your truck (and all on-road vehicles encompassed by emissions standards) has a standard interface and systems which are based on emissions mandates (law). Interfaces are pretty much standardized, though manufacturers can have additional proprietary systems (outside of the emissions ones) which require additional (software) tools to access. Although tractor manufacturers are mandated to meet emissions standards there isn't any mandate for manufacturers to meet any standard for interfaces or software to access. Really kind of the worst of all worlds.

With on-road vehicles there can be mandates for them to be taken into an emissions testing site. Any defeating of emissions equipment would be caught at these sites. Mandates to bring tractors to inspection sites isn't really logistically practical. I imagine the emissions testing construct for tractors to be via good-faith of/by dealers; proprietary tools are likely subsidized by the manufactures- any one other than a dealer would need to shell out a lot of money.

Been a fight about this for a while now. Look up "Right to Repair" (I knew it to have been started by owners of large JD equipment; it is not, of course, something that's unique to JD.)
 
   / Diagnostics
  • Thread Starter
#3  
Your truck (and all on-road vehicles encompassed by emissions standards) has a standard interface and systems which are based on emissions mandates (law). Interfaces are pretty much standardized, though manufacturers can have additional proprietary systems (outside of the emissions ones) which require additional (software) tools to access. Although tractor manufacturers are mandated to meet emissions standards there isn't any mandate for manufacturers to meet any standard for interfaces or software to access. Really kind of the worst of all worlds.

With on-road vehicles there can be mandates for them to be taken into an emissions testing site. Any defeating of emissions equipment would be caught at these sites. Mandates to bring tractors to inspection sites isn't really logistically practical. I imagine the emissions testing construct for tractors to be via good-faith of/by dealers; proprietary tools are likely subsidized by the manufactures- any one other than a dealer would need to shell out a lot of money.

Been a fight about this for a while now. Look up "Right to Repair" (I knew it to have been started by owners of large JD equipment; it is not, of course, something that's unique to JD.)
Thanks for your explanation, DieselBound. I had heard of "right to repair" with respect to JD, but it seems like the issue is everywhere.

Given that I plan to keep my next tractor purchase for 20 to 30 years, I may need to look at mechanical injection tractors, only. I am too cheap to have a dealer repair something.
 
   / Diagnostics #4  
It's all about risk assessment.

On one hand older equipment CAN be worked on. On the other hand there are risks associated with parts availability and forced obsolescence (legal mandates). I'd also state that there IS a downside to the "CAN be worked on," and that's that it eats up one's time.

I've got mechanical injectors and pumps in my VW TDIs (ALH motors). One could have balked at the "technology" that's in these, the computer. Over 20 years and about 220k miles since new my car (17 years and about 190k miles on the wife's car) and not a single computer-related issue. Emissions system, EGR, have had issues (gunked up by the original owners- I cleaned and now operate these cars such that their will never be an issue [I did not rip off any equipment, as most folks' response is to this issue]). I do all the work on these cars because I have multiples of them: at one time had 5 in the family (for the most part all maintained by me). This made economic sense: tool costs; and, my time in learning how to work on them being applied across the board.

I opted to go with a new tractor (in 2016), my Kioti, because I had enough stuff to keep in working order- I wanted something that wasn't likely going to "spring a leak" at some unexpected time (if it did it was on Kioti's dime to fix- warranty). About 650 hrs on this tractor now and, other than some dealer repairs for things like leaking cab, leaking rear axles, all of which were covered under warranty, I've had no engine or major systems issues. I work my tractors hard. I do regular maintenance. I have no regrets, now [earlier on I couldn't have said the same], for buying this tractor.

My first tractor, my B7800, which I still have, was purchased used: 738hrs and four years old (I believe). I still have it and have put on about 1,100 hrs. All mechanical: it's fun to operate in that it's VERY quick, no lags from electronic stuff (sensors and logic programming = delay). I've had no major issues with it (I've broken stuff and then fixed it). Cannot state whether this is a common outcome with used tractors or not. After only ever buying used cars/trucks I can state that with cars/trucks I have found plenty of risk, and I've paid for that risk!

To put things in, what I believe to be, proper perspective, my cars (truck gets some time, but it's mostly a "farm" truck- not a daily driver), between the two, rack up about 400 hrs per year. I rely on/use my cars FAR more than my tractors, in which case my time is best spent on concentrating on keeping them maintained and repaired.

I also have a truck (12v Cummins), an older generator-as-full-backup-power which is powered by an all-mechanical Kubota diesel engine and a 2013 Polaris Brutus which has an all-mechanical Yanmar engine (bought new in 2016 [new old stock- it sat on a dealer's lot for 3 years! NEVER do this again- I've got some fluid leaks that I'm sure are associated with seals deforming from sitting so long] I'm a little leery of all the other mechanical bits on this machine [Polaris- enough said], but so far it's holding together). The truck sees a specialist (I don't need to be proficient with it, though I've done some non-engine and drive train related stuff to it): if I had it to do over I might not have bought this truck- had to deal with lots of issues- $$ (but things are mostly ironed out now).

Point of my ramblings here is that it's the overall picture that the decision ought consider. One cannot assess any piece of equipment outside of one's total use environment. Is a person ready to get hammered with a bunch of repairs to/on a used piece of equipment, does one have the time? There was the case with my truck, and there was the case with my generator both needing a fair amount of work to be deemed operationally reliable: significant amount of money on the truck; significant amount of time on the generator (it's for emergencies, in which case it has to work on-the-spot-and-NOW!- knowing how to ensure I can make it work is worth the time I spent on it). I can justify my time on maintenance/repairs on my cars as: 1) I don't have to work more hours away from home in order to pay someone to work on my cars- I can spend more time at home, though, it's working on my cars; 2) I don't trust anyone with my wife's life- someone else's liability insurance means squat to me if shoddy work ends up harming her life (I am totally focused when working on her car). I could have bought a larger tractor (which I needed) used, but the added risks in the overall picture was something that I saw as being too high. The risk of buying new, so far, has been worth it: I'd say check back with me in 20 years, but I cannot state whether I'd still be alive- it's a race to see who lasts the longest, me or my Kioti!

It's possible that sometime in the future we will see "consumer grade" diagnostic tools: the current lawsuits might end up helping facilitate this; folks might look to support existing efforts. No guarantees though. I have my VW TDIs to point to as to an example of a positive outcome happening: VW's proprietary add-ons make it difficult to properly diagnose issues with standard code readers (especially with/on TDIs!). New means warranties: you pay for them, that's the cost of buying new. I wouldn't be buying used newer generation equipment that has no warranty coverage remaining; exception, which is what this thread is about, is if there were consumer-grade diagnostic tools available. Post-warranty I'd hope that there's enough data out there to identify likely failure points and what replacement parts costs are: sensors seems to be at the top of the list for most equipment; some sensors are inexpensive while others aren't. Always keep in mind that the future isn't what it used to be!

Risk assessment: make sure your comfort meter is properly calibrated!;)
 

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