ORCM
Silver Member
Can anyone recommend a lab for doing a general test for #2 fuel? Had a problem with motor, and the shop is saying it was fuel contamination.
Diesel testing.
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Jerry/MT
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What kind of contamination and what kind of motor poblem?
Short of accidently putting gasoline in the fuel tank, most problems with diesel fuel are caused by water contamination (either from leakage into the storage container or tank, condensation during storage, or contaminated fuel from the seller's facility) and the associated bacterial growth that can occur at the water/fuel interface. Of course you can also have a problem with dirt,etc but the filter should take care of that. Try googling on "Fuel Testing Labs" and see what you can find in your area.
If it is contaminated fuel water, dirt or biological contamination then it is a filter problem, the filters should totally block off the flow.
If it is a new Ford with a 6.7, Ford does not make a filter that works and it will cost you $8,500 plus to get it fixed.
If it is just gas it will not hurt 99% of the systems except the VP44 on a Cummins. Gas in diesel will eat a styrofoam cup
If it is a new Ford with a 6.7, Ford does not make a filter that works and it will cost you $8,500 plus to get it fixed.
If it is just gas it will not hurt 99% of the systems except the VP44 on a Cummins. Gas in diesel will eat a styrofoam cup
You can read more in this forum: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...ating/241925-2320-injector-pump-problems.html
Its a Deere/Yanmar motor. The rings are stuck, except for the oil ring (They have only pulled one piston so far.). Valves are all pitted, and leaking. It was runing fine, and then shut it off and it woudn't start again. Dealer is telling me this would only happen from fuel contamination. I buy my #2 off road from a local fuel supplier, and fill my 50gal transfer tank. I have a filter on my pump, and I dump some Lucas Fuel treatment in the tank when I fill tank. I pulled a sample out of my tank and it looks clear, other than the die. I had also just check the tractor filter, which has a flot for the water separator, hardly anything in it.. The tractor only has 330hrs.:confused2:
Jerry/MT
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Gosh what a saga!
You bought this tractor new and put 330 hrs on it and you're having these problems! Is the tractor parked somewhere where it could be vandalized?
While gasolne is not good in a diesel fuel system or engine, I would have suspect that the pump would show unusual wear because of the lack of lubricity of gasoline. If you tried to run on straight gas, I would suspect the engine would run poorly and you'd know it. Gas has a very low cetane number and it would be hard to start. Having a little gas in some diesel fuel would cause less of a problem. In fact, some diesels allow the use of up to 10% gasoline in #2 diesel for winter use in cold climates. The more modern engine probably don't allow this because of emmission rules. I'm a member of the Ford Powerstroke forum and every once in while someone inadvertently puts gas in a truck diesel. It's usually realized quickly and they have the truck towed and the tank drained and avoid any major problems that way. I've never heard of a problem with the engine after these incidents but then I don't hear everything. You might consider going to that forumnd nosing around to see what you can find out about gas contamination damage. You might also google on google on "diesel engine gasoline damage" etc and see if you can verify what the Deere dealer is telling you.
Have you talked to your fuel supplier? They might have had a problem. If it's a local gas station, it very possible but it's also very possible that the 18 year old running the place won't know what you are talking about.
Pull a sample form the tractor tank and have it analyzed for gas contamination. Call a local fuel didtributor, tell him what the problem is and see if they can recommend a lab. When you get the results you can decide what to do. If you do find gas contamination, the difficult part will be finding out where it came from and proving that, so you can take further action.
If you find via the test, that the fuel is not contaminated, you can use that with Deere. If it is contaminated, someone had to have vandalized your tank or your supplier has sold contaminated fuel, etc.Iif you can convince your insurance company that you fuel suppliy was contaminated by vandals you might get some relief. Otherwise you have to get the fuel supplier to own up to his accidental contamination of the fuel.
You're between a rock and a hard place with this issue and it's seems like through no fault of your own. Best of luck trying to get it resolved. There is a lot of leg work involved in getting to the bottom of this problem and it will eat up a lot of your time and you may end up eating the repair bill when all is said and done. Doesn't seem fair but then again we get no guarantees that life will be fair. Just keep your cool with Deere and stick to the facts. Dumping on them won't get you anyhere and being civil, but firm, may get you some relief.
Good luck and keep us posted on this issue.
Jerry/MT
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Here's some info.
TDReprint
MIXING GASOLINE AND DIESEL
(Issue 26, pages 14 15)
My wise old mechanic who has worked on Mercedes for years told me that if I put one gallon regular gas to a diesel tankfull after about every four tanks that it would perform essentially the same job as a fuel injector cleaner at a fraction of the cost.
I would like to hear a technical opinion.
Bill Carson , e-mail
Bill, I値l turn the answer to your request for a technical opinion over to Brian Kmetz. As a mechanical engineer, Brian痴 daily task at work is to extract BTUs through oxidation from mass quantities of methane and fuel oils. Needless to say, he knows how the fuel 都tuff works. Brian writes:
We hear this one all the time. Another version is to add one gallon of gasoline to 20 gallons of diesel fuel as a cheap easy anti-gel for winter fuel. I値l include alcohols in this discussion because a lot of guys add it instead of gasoline. Both fuels have the same detrimental effect on diesel fuel and are very close in weight and BTU content.
The mechanic meant well and probably never saw a fuel pump or injector failure due to improper blending of fuels. But that doesn稚 mean one is not risking damage, even in small dosages.
Gasoline and alcohols hit diesel fuel right where it hurts the most. Those light thin fuels will lower the cetane number and lubricity. To explain how octane and cetane DO NOT work together, I値l have to review more crude oil and fuel fundamentals.
The light distillates that gasolines are made from have a natural high-octane index. The middle distillates that diesel fuels come from have a high cetane index. The octane and cetane indexes are INVERSE scales. A fuel that has a high octane number has a low cetane number, and a high cetane fuel has a low octane number. Anything with a high octane rating will ****** diesel fuelç—´ ability to ignite. Thatç—´ why each fuel has developed along with different types of engine designs and fuel delivery systems. Gasoline mixed in diesel fuel will inhibit combustion in a diesel engine and diesel fuel mixed in gasoline will ignite too soon in a gasoline engine.
A lot of old-time mechanics added some gasoline to diesel to supposedly clean the carbon deposits out of the cylinders. I have never read anything that said it worked. Gasoline will make the fuel burn hotter, and hotter burning fuels burn cleaner. Thatç—´ probably where the theory got started. In the older diesel engines that belched lots of black smoke even when properly tuned, the result of adding gasoline was probably more white smoke instead of black. This might lead one to believe the engine was running cleaner. Maybe so, probably not. Hereç—´ what happens.
Gasoline will raise the combustion temperature. This might or might not reduce carbon deposits in the cylinder. This also might or might not overheat the injector nozzle enough to cause coking on the nozzle. Thatç—´ a clogged injector tip in laymanç—´ terms. The fuel being injected is the only thing that cools the nozzle. Diesel fuel has a lower combustion temperature than gasoline. The fuel injectors depend on the fuel burning at the correct rate and temperature for a long life. If the combustion temperature is raised long enough, the gums and varnishes in gasoline will start to cook right in the fuel injector and turn into carbon. These microscopic carbon particles will abrade the nozzle. High combustion temperatures alone will shorten fuel injector life, gasoline makes the problem worse.
Gasoline and alcohols do have an anti-gel effect on diesel fuel, but these fuels are too thin and will hurt the lubricity. Alcohols work as a water dispersant in small amounts, but also attract water in large amounts. Diesel fuel is already hydrophilic (attracts water) so why add to the problem. The old timers got away with this because high sulfur diesel fuel had enough lubricity to take some thinning. Today痴 low sulfur diesel fuels have adequate lubricity, but I wouldn稚 put anything in the tank that would thin out the fuel, reduce lubricity, or attract water.
Opposites do not attract in this case. Use any of the diesel fuel additives available to clean out carbon deposits, not gasoline or alcohols.
While weæ±*e on the subject of fuels, letç—´ discuss another common question. What is cetane?
Cetane is to diesel fuel what octane is to gasoline. It is a measure of the fuelç—´ ignition quality and performance. Cetane is actually a hydrocarbon chain, its real name is 1-hexadecane. It is written as C16H34, or a chain of 16 carbon atoms with 34 hydrogen atoms attached. All HC chains are also referred to as paraffins. Cetane is a hydrocarbon molecule that ignites very easily under compression, so it was assigned a rating of 100. All the hydrocarbons in diesel fuel are indexed to cetane as to how well they ignite under compression. There is very little actual cetane in diesel fuel.
All the hydrocarbons in diesel fuel have similar ignition characteristics as cetane. Cetane is abbreviated as CN. A very loose way to think about cetane is if the fuel has a CN of 45, then the fuel will ignite 45% as well as 100% cetane. Diesel engines run just fine with a CN between 45 to 50. There is no performance or emission advantage to keep raising the CN past 50. After that point the fuelç—´ performance hits a plateau.
Diesel at the pump can be found in two CN ranges: 40-46 for regular diesel, and 45-50 for premium. The minimum CN at the pump is supposed to be 45. The legal minimum cetane rating for #1 and #2 diesel is 40. Most diesel fuel leaves the refinery with a CN of around 42. The CN rating depends on the crude oil the fuel was refined from. It varies so much from tanker to tanker that a consistent CN rating is almost impossible. Distilling diesel is a crude process compared with making gasoline. Gasoline is more of a manufactured product with tighter standards so the octane rating is very consistent. But, the CN rating at the diesel pump can be anywhere from 42-46. Thatç—´ why there is almost never a sticker on a diesel fuel pump for CN.
Premium diesel has additives to improve CN and lubricity, detergents to clean the fuel injectors and minimize carbon deposits, water dispersant, and other additives depending on geographical and seasonal needs. More biocides added in the south in summer, more ant-gel added in the north in winter. Most retailers who sell premium diesel will have little brochures called POPs (Point of Purchase) at the counter explaining what痴 in their fuel. Please don稚 ask the poor clerk behind the counter any technical questions after reading this discussion. All they need to know how to do is sell you beer, milk, cigarettes, lottery tickets, and take your money.
Texaco and Amoco are two big names who sell premium diesel in limited markets. Amoco primarily sells its Premier to specialized industrial and agricultural markets. I cannot get either in my area. Most fuel retailers buy additives or buy treated fuel. In the Northern plains states, Koch is a well-known marketer of premium diesel. I buy it when I travel into Northern Wisconsin.
Because there are no legal standards for premium diesel yet, it is very hard to know if you are buying the good stuff. I have good news. An ASTM task force has drafted standards for premium diesel. When the new specifications are accepted, information will have to be posted on the fuel pump. Retailers will no longer be allowed to label cheap blended diesel as �remium. They will have separate pumps with clear labels on both informing the customer what is being sold. The marketing and labeling will be the same as with regular and premium gasoline. Retailers selling the real thing use this system now. Enforcement of all fuel standards is done at the state level in the USA.
Diesel fuel is an international commodity for industry. Therefore, you should be picky about where you fill up. Shop for price from a large volume retailer so you have the freshest fuel. Thatç—´ about the best advice I can give.
The 1994 legislation and reformulation of diesel fuel in North America is due to an international effort for lower emissions. Cleaner diesel emission laws are on the way. Diesel fuel is going to be reformulated into a cleaner fuel in general. Without getting too technical (this is over-simplified and very generalized), diesel fuel for the most part is made up of two different hydrocarbon families: paraffins and aromatics. The paraffins have a naturally high cetane index, burn clean, but cause the annoying gel problem in winter. The aromatics have a naturally high lubricity, low cetane index, and cause a lot of diesel emissions and soot. Reformulated diesel will have a higher paraffin content, higher cetane number, and a much lower aromatic and sulfur content. It will also be more prone to jelling and have a lower lubricity. Big oil is working on improved additives as I type this.
The reason nothing has happened yet is because of infighting in the EPA on its new Tier II Emissions standards for gasoline and diesel. Ultra-clean technology for gasoline and diesel engines is almost ready to go, but the refiners have to lower the sulfur level drastically in both fuels. The EPA should formally set something by year 2000.
Brian Kmetz
TDReprint
MIXING GASOLINE AND DIESEL
(Issue 26, pages 14 15)
My wise old mechanic who has worked on Mercedes for years told me that if I put one gallon regular gas to a diesel tankfull after about every four tanks that it would perform essentially the same job as a fuel injector cleaner at a fraction of the cost.
I would like to hear a technical opinion.
Bill Carson , e-mail
Bill, I値l turn the answer to your request for a technical opinion over to Brian Kmetz. As a mechanical engineer, Brian痴 daily task at work is to extract BTUs through oxidation from mass quantities of methane and fuel oils. Needless to say, he knows how the fuel 都tuff works. Brian writes:
We hear this one all the time. Another version is to add one gallon of gasoline to 20 gallons of diesel fuel as a cheap easy anti-gel for winter fuel. I値l include alcohols in this discussion because a lot of guys add it instead of gasoline. Both fuels have the same detrimental effect on diesel fuel and are very close in weight and BTU content.
The mechanic meant well and probably never saw a fuel pump or injector failure due to improper blending of fuels. But that doesn稚 mean one is not risking damage, even in small dosages.
Gasoline and alcohols hit diesel fuel right where it hurts the most. Those light thin fuels will lower the cetane number and lubricity. To explain how octane and cetane DO NOT work together, I値l have to review more crude oil and fuel fundamentals.
The light distillates that gasolines are made from have a natural high-octane index. The middle distillates that diesel fuels come from have a high cetane index. The octane and cetane indexes are INVERSE scales. A fuel that has a high octane number has a low cetane number, and a high cetane fuel has a low octane number. Anything with a high octane rating will ****** diesel fuelç—´ ability to ignite. Thatç—´ why each fuel has developed along with different types of engine designs and fuel delivery systems. Gasoline mixed in diesel fuel will inhibit combustion in a diesel engine and diesel fuel mixed in gasoline will ignite too soon in a gasoline engine.
A lot of old-time mechanics added some gasoline to diesel to supposedly clean the carbon deposits out of the cylinders. I have never read anything that said it worked. Gasoline will make the fuel burn hotter, and hotter burning fuels burn cleaner. Thatç—´ probably where the theory got started. In the older diesel engines that belched lots of black smoke even when properly tuned, the result of adding gasoline was probably more white smoke instead of black. This might lead one to believe the engine was running cleaner. Maybe so, probably not. Hereç—´ what happens.
Gasoline will raise the combustion temperature. This might or might not reduce carbon deposits in the cylinder. This also might or might not overheat the injector nozzle enough to cause coking on the nozzle. Thatç—´ a clogged injector tip in laymanç—´ terms. The fuel being injected is the only thing that cools the nozzle. Diesel fuel has a lower combustion temperature than gasoline. The fuel injectors depend on the fuel burning at the correct rate and temperature for a long life. If the combustion temperature is raised long enough, the gums and varnishes in gasoline will start to cook right in the fuel injector and turn into carbon. These microscopic carbon particles will abrade the nozzle. High combustion temperatures alone will shorten fuel injector life, gasoline makes the problem worse.
Gasoline and alcohols do have an anti-gel effect on diesel fuel, but these fuels are too thin and will hurt the lubricity. Alcohols work as a water dispersant in small amounts, but also attract water in large amounts. Diesel fuel is already hydrophilic (attracts water) so why add to the problem. The old timers got away with this because high sulfur diesel fuel had enough lubricity to take some thinning. Today痴 low sulfur diesel fuels have adequate lubricity, but I wouldn稚 put anything in the tank that would thin out the fuel, reduce lubricity, or attract water.
Opposites do not attract in this case. Use any of the diesel fuel additives available to clean out carbon deposits, not gasoline or alcohols.
While weæ±*e on the subject of fuels, letç—´ discuss another common question. What is cetane?
Cetane is to diesel fuel what octane is to gasoline. It is a measure of the fuelç—´ ignition quality and performance. Cetane is actually a hydrocarbon chain, its real name is 1-hexadecane. It is written as C16H34, or a chain of 16 carbon atoms with 34 hydrogen atoms attached. All HC chains are also referred to as paraffins. Cetane is a hydrocarbon molecule that ignites very easily under compression, so it was assigned a rating of 100. All the hydrocarbons in diesel fuel are indexed to cetane as to how well they ignite under compression. There is very little actual cetane in diesel fuel.
All the hydrocarbons in diesel fuel have similar ignition characteristics as cetane. Cetane is abbreviated as CN. A very loose way to think about cetane is if the fuel has a CN of 45, then the fuel will ignite 45% as well as 100% cetane. Diesel engines run just fine with a CN between 45 to 50. There is no performance or emission advantage to keep raising the CN past 50. After that point the fuelç—´ performance hits a plateau.
Diesel at the pump can be found in two CN ranges: 40-46 for regular diesel, and 45-50 for premium. The minimum CN at the pump is supposed to be 45. The legal minimum cetane rating for #1 and #2 diesel is 40. Most diesel fuel leaves the refinery with a CN of around 42. The CN rating depends on the crude oil the fuel was refined from. It varies so much from tanker to tanker that a consistent CN rating is almost impossible. Distilling diesel is a crude process compared with making gasoline. Gasoline is more of a manufactured product with tighter standards so the octane rating is very consistent. But, the CN rating at the diesel pump can be anywhere from 42-46. Thatç—´ why there is almost never a sticker on a diesel fuel pump for CN.
Premium diesel has additives to improve CN and lubricity, detergents to clean the fuel injectors and minimize carbon deposits, water dispersant, and other additives depending on geographical and seasonal needs. More biocides added in the south in summer, more ant-gel added in the north in winter. Most retailers who sell premium diesel will have little brochures called POPs (Point of Purchase) at the counter explaining what痴 in their fuel. Please don稚 ask the poor clerk behind the counter any technical questions after reading this discussion. All they need to know how to do is sell you beer, milk, cigarettes, lottery tickets, and take your money.
Texaco and Amoco are two big names who sell premium diesel in limited markets. Amoco primarily sells its Premier to specialized industrial and agricultural markets. I cannot get either in my area. Most fuel retailers buy additives or buy treated fuel. In the Northern plains states, Koch is a well-known marketer of premium diesel. I buy it when I travel into Northern Wisconsin.
Because there are no legal standards for premium diesel yet, it is very hard to know if you are buying the good stuff. I have good news. An ASTM task force has drafted standards for premium diesel. When the new specifications are accepted, information will have to be posted on the fuel pump. Retailers will no longer be allowed to label cheap blended diesel as �remium. They will have separate pumps with clear labels on both informing the customer what is being sold. The marketing and labeling will be the same as with regular and premium gasoline. Retailers selling the real thing use this system now. Enforcement of all fuel standards is done at the state level in the USA.
Diesel fuel is an international commodity for industry. Therefore, you should be picky about where you fill up. Shop for price from a large volume retailer so you have the freshest fuel. Thatç—´ about the best advice I can give.
The 1994 legislation and reformulation of diesel fuel in North America is due to an international effort for lower emissions. Cleaner diesel emission laws are on the way. Diesel fuel is going to be reformulated into a cleaner fuel in general. Without getting too technical (this is over-simplified and very generalized), diesel fuel for the most part is made up of two different hydrocarbon families: paraffins and aromatics. The paraffins have a naturally high cetane index, burn clean, but cause the annoying gel problem in winter. The aromatics have a naturally high lubricity, low cetane index, and cause a lot of diesel emissions and soot. Reformulated diesel will have a higher paraffin content, higher cetane number, and a much lower aromatic and sulfur content. It will also be more prone to jelling and have a lower lubricity. Big oil is working on improved additives as I type this.
The reason nothing has happened yet is because of infighting in the EPA on its new Tier II Emissions standards for gasoline and diesel. Ultra-clean technology for gasoline and diesel engines is almost ready to go, but the refiners have to lower the sulfur level drastically in both fuels. The EPA should formally set something by year 2000.
Brian Kmetz
RoyJackson
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Just google " Oil Testing Labs in Oregon" and see what comes up. You could also contact a local diesel distributor and see if they have suggestions.
jenkinsph
Super Star Member
That is a helpful suggestion thanks to Roy.:thumbsup:
ORCM, wish you the best of luck getting this resolved and sorry for your loss.
yelbike
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Jerry, thanks, good read and explanation!!:thumbsup:
Jerry/MT
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Just trying to help someone in a difficult situation. I'm sure that there is more good info out there.
It would be good to see if this tractor/engine combintion has similar problems that might be attributable an engine QC issue rather than gas/fuel contamination. If the OP doesn't find gas in his diesel, the Deere position begins to look less likely. I'm really surprised the injector pump and injectors aren' showing signs of distress as I would have expected the effects of gas/diesel contamination (poor lubricity) to show up there first. Could be his use of a diesel additive masked that, however.
