Difference in 4 in 1 Buckets

Sadler · Oct 23, 2004

I've finally settled on a price with my dealer on a JD 4120 tractor with 400x loader with all the accessories. Order goes in Monday. Can't wait. I have two questions.

One of the things that came up when writing up the spec sheet was whether I wanted a JD 4 in 1 bucket or a W.R. Long 4 in 1 bucket. I know Long makes a light and a heavy duty bucket. The question is what duty is the JD 4 in 1? Does it compare to the Long light or heavy duty bucket? Long bucket is $300 more and may be worth it. I can't find the weight of the Deere bucket anywhere, but Long posts the weights of their two buckets.

One more thing--dealer says best option is to mount electric switch for the action of the 4 in 1 on the stick that controls the bucket motion rather than the manual JD lever that goes down on the right side next to the driver. The switch is so you can operate all functions of the bucket without taking your hands off the bucket lever. Does this sound correct? Thanks very much.

Jim_Fisher · Oct 23, 2004

Sadler,

( One of the things that came up when writing up the spec sheet was whether I wanted a JD 4 in 1 bucket or a W.R. Long 4 in 1 bucket. I know Long makes a light and a heavy duty bucket. The question is what duty is the JD 4 in 1? Does it compare to the Long light or heavy duty bucket? Long bucket is $300 more and may be worth it. I can't find the weight of the Deere bucket anywhere, but Long posts the weights of their two buckets. )

I have a John Deere 4in1 bucket on a 4300. The tractor has a little over a thousand hours use in the four years that I have owned it with a fair amount of loader use.

I have had one hydraulic hose get pinched because it was not properly secured. It was replaced under warranty. Another hose failed after three years. I had a local hydraulic shop make one up out of a heavier grade of hose. They charged me about $6.00.

I have carried, loaded, and stacked log length firewood, uprooted small trees, moved some fair sized stumps, handled and set thirty or forty railroad ties and moved some fairly long locust trees that were 8" or so at the base. The only problem that I have had is that I occasionally bend one or the other of the two teeth that protrude from the section that opens and help to grip things that are being picked up. This usally happens when I'm handling a long tree and I can't get to the center to pick it up. A few swings from an eight pound hammer resolves the issue.

I suspect that the Deere 4in1 is probably more than adequate for the tractor and loader that you are buying.

Hopefully, someone who owns a Long 4in1 bucket will jump in here and offer their experience. There is also a company called ATI , which advertises on this site, that makes a 4in1 bucket.

( One more thing--dealer says best option is to mount electric switch for the action of the 4 in 1 on the stick that controls the bucket motion rather than the manual JD lever that goes down on the right side next to the driver. The switch is so you can operate all functions of the bucket without taking your hands off the bucket lever. Does this sound correct? )

I have that setup - a Fasse valve and joystick control - and it works nicely for what I do. There are other scenarios where a separate valve would be advantageous. Removing crushed stone from a concrete or asphalt surface would be one of those. Nothing on my property is paved, so for me it isn't an issue. The Fasse valve has had one o-ring fail, causing a leak at the top of the valve. I replaced it with an o-ring from an assortment that I keep on hand. It required one wrench and about five minutes of my time.

You need to ask the dealer if the 4010 has a regenerative curl circuit and, if it does, how does he intend to manage the the regen when using a diverter on the curl circuit.

My 4300 has a setting that locks out the regenerative circuit which allows me to open the 4in1 by moving the joystick to the right - the same direction as dumping the curl. If I do not select the regen lockout, the 4in1 sometimes moves in the opposite direction or is very jerky.
The alternative is to pipe the 4in1 so that it closes when you move the joystick to the right. Mine was delivered with this configuration and I found it to be awkward and inefficient. Most times that I grasp something with the 4in1 bucket, I need to immediately curl the bucket.

I looked at the 4010 manual on line and discovered that there doesn't appear to be a regen lockout nor is the regenerative circuit mentioned in the part covering the dual slective control valve.

Here is a recent thread which you may find helpful: Four in One bucket recommendations . If you search this site for "4in1", "4-in-1", or "grapple", you'll probably find additional information.

Sadler · Oct 24, 2004

Thanks Jim. I read all your referred posts and suggestions and know ten times what I knew before. By the way, the tractor is a 4120, not a 4010. It's one of the new twenty series. Don't think that affects your suggestions. Can't wait to get that 4 in 1 around the throats of those logs and brush piles I've been struggling with manually all these years.

Sounds like the JD bucket will be fine. On the 4 in 1 open/close question, I'll now query my dealer on exactly how he plans to implement the joystick 4 in 1 control. (Boy, the dealers must sometimes hate TBN when the buyers come in somewhat informed and asking the hard questions.) If I understand now, it sounds like if you can get the open/close function of the 4 in 1 on the bucket stick, you're better off. You can do this one of two ways: get double duty out of the control valve for the curl dump and have it also be able to control the 4 in 1 open/close, or you can add a new electric valve for the open/close and control it via a switch added on top of the bucket stick. The first solution is less expensive than the second, but has been quite adequate for your (which matches my) use. And if you go with the double duty solution, and if the tractor has a regen circuit for the curl, you need to be able to lock out the regen to keep the pressurized fluid from getting back on the other side and reversing the direction intended. Right?

Jim_Fisher · Oct 24, 2004

Sadler,

( By the way, the tractor is a 4120, not a 4010. It's one of the new twenty series. Don't think that affects your suggestions. )

Oops ... must have been half asleep when I read the post. Sorry.

The manual for the 4120 shows the regen lockout:
Using Dual Selective Control Valve (SCV) Lock Lever

( If I understand now, it sounds like if you can get the open/close function of the 4 in 1 on the bucket stick, you're better off. You can do this one of two ways: get double duty out of the control valve for the curl dump and have it also be able to control the 4 in 1 open/close, or you can add a new electric valve for the open/close and control it via a switch added on top of the bucket stick. The first solution is less expensive than the second, but has been quite adequate for your (which matches my) use. )

Not exactly. The least expensive solution will probably be to use the third SCV to control the 4in1. This solution involves moving your hand from the joystick to the third SCV control lever. See Using Hydraulic Third Selective Control Valve (SCV) for an illustration. In addition to being less expensive, this option allows you to operate the 4in1 bucket in conjunction with the bucket curl. On my 4300, this control is mounted out on the right fender and is awkward at best. On your tractor the control is mounted between the seat and the right fender. Probably better ergonomics than on my 4300. The folks that have chosen this solution have indicated that they are happy with it for their purposes.

The other solution (the one that I chose) is the use of an electric diverter to change the curl circuit between the curl and the 4in1. This costs more but requires only that you depress your thumb to switch between functions. You then use the joystick to control the selected function. This allows you to adjust the height of the loader to follow the contour of the ground while closing the 4in1. I find this useful when I'm rooting out shallow rooted brush such as multiflora rose. It enables me to minimize the disturbance of the soil.

( or you can add a new electric valve for the open/close and control it via a switch added on top of the bucket stick )

Although I haven't seen this setup, I'm sure that a dedicated electric over hydraulic valve could be used also. Keep in mind that this would require jogging the control switch (which I would expect to be a spring loaded, center off, toggle switch rather than a button) to regulate the flow since the valve is either open or closed. This would allow you to curl and control the 4in1 simultaniously. I'm not sure where the cost of this type of option is going to fall.

( And if you go with the double duty solution, and if the tractor has a regen circuit for the curl, you need to be able to lock out the regen to keep the pressurized fluid from getting back on the other side and reversing the direction intended. Right? )

Right. I believe that we have determined that, according to the on-line manual, your tractor has the capability to lock out the regen circuit.

Sadler · Oct 24, 2004

Thanks Jim. I think I understand now. I'm going to the dealer tomorrow and get him now to explain what he had in mind. I'll report back what we come up with.

BigGary · Oct 25, 2004

Ask the dealer why is the switch is best. I have used both and the lever is much more natural.
My JD four in one is rugged and well built and I am satisfied.
The JD mounts on skid steer end of arms and I like that option. How about the Long?

Sadler · Oct 25, 2004

I went to the dealer today and only had enough time to discuss buckets. He called Long and they said their 72" "heavy duty" (UJ2-72) 4 in 1 bucket opens wider than the Deere and is stronger. It costs 300 more than the Deere, plus some extra for shipping. The dealer offered to cut the price a bit and Long offered to ship with another shipment to cut shipping, so with so little money on the line, I bit and went with the Long bucket. Long also offered to drill the holes and mount the tooth bar before shipping. I don't have any real proof that the Long is any better than the Deere other than it costs more. Dealer said he was talking with the owner of Long; I have to say both seemed to be doing what they could to make the customer happy. And Gary, I don't know if the Long will work like the Deere on skid steer arms. BTW, The dealer said Amer-i- somebody made the Deere bucket: Ameriquip?

I'll head back to dealer later this week to discuss how he intends to control the bucket opening and closing. Dealer has the tractor, loader, and everything else in stock except the bucket, so I may have my new toy, er valuable farm tool, by week's end.

Jim_Fisher · Oct 26, 2004

Sadler,

( Dealer said he was talking with the owner of Long; I have to say both seemed to be doing what they could to make the customer happy. )

To my way of thinking, that's a whole lot more important than the brand that you choose.

( He called Long and they said their 72" "heavy duty" (UJ2-72) 4 in 1 bucket opens wider than the Deere and is stronger. )

Stronger is somewhat subjective but opens wider is a good thing.

( The dealer said Amer-i- somebody made the Deere bucket: Ameriquip? )

Amerequip manufactures backhoes for Deere and used to make the Bush Hog backhoes. At one time they had a list of their OEM partners on their web site but it seems to have disappeared.

( Dealer has the tractor, loader, and everything else in stock except the bucket, so I may have my new toy, er valuable farm tool, by week's end. )

The added weight of the 4in1 bucket is significant before you ever pick anything up. Make sure that you have a way to add ballast behind the rear wheels. See Required minimum tractor ballast in the manual for specifics. This is for both safety/stability and for minimizing wear and tear on the steering axle.

I'm sure that we'd all love to see pictures after you take delivery.

Sadler · Oct 26, 2004

Thanks Jim. I will post photos as soon as I take delivery.

For ballast, I was considering using my scraper blade, but it's too light, and rather than buying another, I opted to include a ballast box in the deal. I'm looking at the link you gave on required ballast and it says I need 1102 lbs of ballast at the 3 pt. hitch in addition to the wheel weights and water in the tires, but farther down it says the ballast box with extension with concrete gives only 516 lbs. Where does the remaining 586 lbs. of 3 pt. hitch ballast come from?

Jim_Fisher · Oct 26, 2004

Sadler,

( I'm looking at the link you gave on required ballast and it says I need 1102 lbs of ballast at the 3 pt. hitch in addition to the wheel weights and water in the tires, but farther down it says the ballast box with extension with concrete gives only 516 lbs. )

I think that it is supposed to read 516 killograms, not pounds.

I'm pretty sure that my ballast box, which doesn't have the extension and is filled with sand, weighs over 600 pounds.