Dig a well or annex into the city?

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Hey guys,

I’m looking for some advise here, I bought a house 3 years ago and the small city I boarder now is trying to force me to annex into the city on my dime.

They drafted a law in 2008 any house bought after 2010 that is on city water and septic has to annex into the city within 90 days or they have no legal obligation to provide water services (aka shut my water off).

I’m the second owner since that date and was not told about this when I bought the house. (Private sale)

Pros of annexation: Water bills go down by around 40% I was told. I continue to get city water and septic. I would be covered by city police department and not county sheriffs.

Cons: I have to pay more taxes, a tax that I’m not currently paying of 1.5% income tax will be new. I would be within the city limits but still be considered as “rural”, I was told this would not affect my ability to have Cattle and chickens. Home improvements would need inspected.

To tell them to shove it, I would need to have a well dug then dig the old septic system up and hook back up to that. (Septic hasn’t been used in over 10 years. Would be pretty costly.

Currently I’m paying $70 per month for under 2999 gallons, around $100 for 3000-3999 gallons and around $120 for above 4000 gallons which I have hit because of water use with cattle.

I’m in the township, I pay property tax and local school tax, those would be the same but it would add 1.5% income tax (forget what it’s called).

Idk what an annexation will cost, I will be looking into it in the next few days. As far as resale value, township houses are more sought after due to less taxes so it would be easier to resell if I stayed township, I don’t really think it would lower its value unless the buyer couldn’t afford the taxes and the house, might turn a few potential buyers away. But idk.

So what do you all think? Bite the bullet and start digging up the yard or pay to annex?

I will also say I would have to start selling stuff off and get a loan for most of the cost to get off city water and septic, I don’t just have the cash sitting in the bank.

 

[turnkey4099]

Hey guys,

I’m looking for some advise here, I bought a house 3 years ago and the small city I boarder now is trying to force me to annex into the city on my dime.

They drafted a law in 2008 any house bought after 2010 that is on city water and septic has to annex into the city within 90 days or they have no legal obligation to provide water services (aka shut my water off).

I’m the second owner since that date and was not told about this when I bought the house. (Private sale)

Pros of annexation: Water bills go down by around 40% I was told. I continue to get city water and septic. I would be covered by city police department and not county sheriffs.

Cons: I have to pay more taxes, a tax that I’m not currently paying of 1.5% income tax will be new. I would be within the city limits but still be considered as “rural”, I was told this would not affect my ability to have Cattle and chickens. Home improvements would need inspected.

To tell them to shove it, I would need to have a well dug then dig the old septic system up and hook back up to that. (Septic hasn’t been used in over 10 years. Would be pretty costly.

Currently I’m paying $70 per month for under 2999 gallons, around $100 for 3000-3999 gallons and around $120 for above 4000 gallons which I have hit because of water use with cattle.

I’m in the township, I pay property tax and local school tax, those would be the same but it would add 1.5% income tax (forget what it’s called).

Idk what an annexation will cost, I will be looking into it in the next few days. As far as resale value, township houses are more sought after due to less taxes so it would be easier to resell if I stayed township, I don’t really think it would lower its value unless the buyer couldn’t afford the taxes and the house, might turn a few potential buyers away. But idk.

So what do you all think? Bite the bullet and start digging up the yard or pay to annex?

I will also say I would have to start selling stuff off and get a loan for most of the cost to get off city water and septic, I don’t just have the cash sitting in the bank.

tight spot. If you stay on city GET EVERY PROMISE IN WRITING BY SOMEONE WHO IS ACTUALLY IN AUTHORITY. Then make multiple certified copies and include one (best would be the original) with the title docuiments.

 

[EarPlug]

"force me to annex into the city on my dime." So what would the cost be?

"was not told about this when I bought the house. (Private sale)" - talk to a Real Estate Lawyer, you might still be able to go after the previous owners for non-disclosure

"Water bills go down by around 40%" - by what you said about your usage you should save over $1500/year

"it would add 1.5% income tax" - tax on what "income"?

"might turn a few potential buyers away" - most "city folks" would prefer city water & sewer. They are afraid of well & septic. How soon do you plan on selling? Might be a non issue.

It sounds like you still don't have enough info. You need to know the cost of annexation versus the cost of going back to well & septic. Also, what is the actual taxation difference. The savings on the cost of water may just offset the increased taxes.

 

[oldnslo]

A couple of questions:
Will the county approve the request to drill a well?
Will the county approve your request to install the septic system.

What will these two items cost and how many years would it take to recoup these costs Vs paying the 1.5% tax?

Here in Illinois they probably would not allow you to drill a well or install the septic that close to an established community.

 

[fordmantpw]

"was not told about this when I bought the house. (Private sale)" - talk to a Real Estate Lawyer, you might still be able to go after the previous owners for non-disclosure

I don't think the seller has to disclose a public law. That's the buyer's own due diligence unless the seller didn't mention it was on city water/sewer. Again, though, that's the buyer's responsibility to find out.

 

[bunyip]

I thought that you would have a disclosure document similar to what we have when purchasing a property, the title cannot be transferred without one and if the disclosure document has an omission you have some legal recourse with whoever created the document be it either fraudulent or error.
It appears that you may have some recourse given the dates but get legal advice as per EarPlugs' suggestion.

EDIT: Fordmanptw posted while I was submitting and my comments are based on what I thought would constitute ethical behaviour.

 

[fordmantpw]

To the OP, do you know the cost to drill the well and fix the septic? How much would you have to borrow?

How much would those taxes add every year?

With that information, we can likely calculate the cost to do one over the other.

In my opinion, I would prefer to be connected to sewer, but wouldn't trade my well for city water if I had a choice. I much prefer the taste and lack of chlorine from the well.

I thought that you would have a disclosure document similar to what we have when purchasing a property, the title cannot be transferred without one and if the disclosure document has an omission you have some legal recourse with whoever created the document be it either fraudulent or error.
It appears that you may have some recourse given the dates but get legal advice as per EarPlugs' suggestion.

EDIT: Fordmanptw posted while I was submitting and my comments are based on what I thought would constitute ethical behaviour.

I agree it would be ethical of the buyer to point it out, but not necessary legal. The buyer's ignorance of the law is not the seller's fault.

 

[tcreeley]

Call some well drilers in the area and they can tell you what they require to drill and how deep the wells go in your area.. Can be a one day job. I like well water- tastes better, no chemical/chlorine taste. The county/town will tell you what you need for a septic system. The design depends on the number of bedrooms and bathrooms (number of people). Ours is a 1000 gal tank and a connected leach field for drainage. That is usually a 1 day job as well. They probably can use your old tank and just redo the leach field, good luck.

 

[300UGUY]

I’d say you might as well go along with it, as long as you are grandfathered in, as far as animals. I doubt they would cut off your water and sewer, might not be legal for them to do so. I also think that drilling a well is not going to be allowed, same with the septic. In Michigan, you cannot get a well put in without a permit. The well guys don’t want to lose their license, so the won’t do it. I know, I tried ! ��
And no money upfront is nice too. I didn’t want to go on the municipal system at a building I own, but after using the city water, I like it. Reminds me I gotta go add some salt in my softener here at home ��

So

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

"force me to annex into the city on my dime." So what would the cost be?

"was not told about this when I bought the house. (Private sale)" - talk to a Real Estate Lawyer, you might still be able to go after the previous owners for non-disclosure

"Water bills go down by around 40%" - by what you said about your usage you should save over $1500/year

"it would add 1.5% income tax" - tax on what "income"?

"might turn a few potential buyers away" - most "city folks" would prefer city water & sewer. They are afraid of well & septic. How soon do you plan on selling? Might be a non issue.

It sounds like you still don't have enough info. You need to know the cost of annexation versus the cost of going back to well & septic. Also, what is the actual taxation difference. The savings on the cost of water may just offset the increased taxes.

Still don’t know the annexation cost.

Will look into that.

My bill is usually $70 per month, it’s been as high as $125 but that’s really hot summer months. 40% of 70 is 28, that would drop the bill to $42 or around there. $42x12=$504-$720 vs $840-$1200 per year now. So I would save $300-$600 per year.

1.5% tax on my income, from my job.

I don’t have any plans to sell but who knows what the future will hold.

 

[Streetcar]

Can city annex property that is not adjacent to existing city property. I know in Cincinnati area annexation has some weird boundaries to insure continuous city boundaries.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

A couple of questions:
Will the county approve the request to drill a well?
Will the county approve your request to install the septic system.

What will these two items cost and how many years would it take to recoup these costs Vs paying the 1.5% tax?

Here in Illinois they probably would not allow you to drill a well or install the septic that close to an established community.

Septic is already on the property, i would assume the pumps and guts are bad but I have concrete casings back there.

I’m not worried about acceptance, it’s a small town and I know the people making that decision.

That 1.5% tax would be around $800 per year, I could save $300-$600 on lower water-bill but would still have to watch my water use. Annexation I would assume would be over $1000 after all said and done, I would be very surprised if it was cheaper.

A well I believe is over 10k not even touching septic.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Can city annex property that is not adjacent to existing city property. I know in Cincinnati area annexation has some weird boundaries to insure continuous city boundaries.

I’m on a island of township, my property along with I believe 6 other properties are township, we are landlocked by city limits, in front and behind is city, either side is township.

 

[fordmantpw]

Septic is already on the property, i would assume the pumps and guts are bad but I have concrete casings back there.

I’m not worried about acceptance, it’s a small town and I know the people making that decision.

That 1.5% tax would be around $800 per year, I could save $300-$600 on lower water-bill but would still have to watch my water use. Annexation I would assume would be over $1000 after all said and done, I would be very surprised if it was cheaper.

A well I believe is over 10k not even touching septic.

So, $800/year tax, plus $1k up front to join the city, plus you have to pay for your water at let's say $600/year. So that is $1400/year.

Let's say a well is 10k (mine was 7500 here in central MO 3 years ago). Minus $1k for joining the city is 9k + septic work. If all you have is a septic tank and leach field, you may be able to get by with just hooking back up to it, so let's say $1500 there.

So, you are looking at 9k + 1.5k = 10.5k to get a well and septic. Divide that by 1400/year and you are at 7.5 years payback. Electricity to pump your well won't be free, but shouldn't be that much, maybe $100/year, so add a year to be safe and you've got an 8.5 year payback. Honestly, I'd get some hard numbers from a well company and septic folks and go from there, but at a 8.5 year payback, if I was going to stay there at least 10 years, I'd do the well and continue to NOT be a part of the city.

 

[Redlands Okie]

Check your math. Original statement was a 40% reduction. Then your math was 40% of the cost. Quite a difference.
As others have stated you need to get the information figured out IN WRITING on official city paper work with headers etc. signed by city authorities.

How long do you get the water price discount ? Is the discount the normal city rate ? I assume your paying extra because your not in the city limits and their trying to influence you to swap.
Are you the second owner after the 2010 date ? If so why was the guy you bought it from not forced to join the city? Seems they slipped up and now trying to make up for it out of your pocket. Their negligence might just cover the cost of your annexing..........
Is there something in writing that sets how the zoning is handled. Why do you think they cannot force you into single tenet city use or some such and not agriculture ?
Seems your likely to come out ahead in the short term to join but I would sure want it all documented. The next people in whatever city positions may not be interested in keeping to the “word” of the previous person. Thus the commitment in writing. Heck the current people can just get disagreeable for some unknown reason.
Often times there is different definitions of livestock as far as if its chickens, pigs, rabbits, cattle, horses, etc. Also often times there are limits on numbers allowed. Need to get it all checked out.

 

[Ford850]

It doesn't matter what they tell you from the city today, they can change the law next month and not allow any livestock. As others have said, crunch the numbers. I'd be leaning towards staying in the Twp even if it cost a little more.

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

Check your math. Original statement was a 40% reduction. Then your math was 40% of the cost. Quite a difference.
As others have stated you need to get the information figured out IN WRITING on official city paper work with headers etc. signed by city authorities.

How long do you get the water price discount ? Is the discount the normal city rate ? I assume your paying extra because your not in the city limits and their trying to influence you to swap.
Are you the second owner after the 2010 date ? If so why was the guy you bought it from not forced to join the city? Seems they slipped up and now trying to make up for it out of your pocket. Their negligence might just cover the cost of your annexing..........
Is there something in writing that sets how the zoning is handled. Why do you think they cannot force you into single tenet city use or some such and not agriculture ?
Seems your likely to come out ahead in the short term to join but I would sure want it all documented. The next people in whatever city positions may not be interested in keeping to the “word” of the previous person. Thus the commitment in writing. Heck the current people can just get disagreeable for some unknown reason.
Often times there is different definitions of livestock as far as if its chickens, pigs, rabbits, cattle, horses, etc. Also often times there are limits on numbers allowed. Need to get it all checked out.

40% reduction is correct, that’s what I was told so I looked it up and this is what I found on the website.

In Town Rates

Water Rents: $6.88 per thousand gallons of water usage
Sewer Rents: $7.38 per thousand gallons of water usage

Out of Town Rates

Water Rents: $9.69 per thousand gallons of water usage
Sewer Rents: $10.70 per thousand gallons of water usage.

Trash is $15 and is added to the bill.

The guy I bought the house off of is a neighbor, he bought the house at an auction and had the house in his name around 5 or 6 months then I bought it. He never put the water in his name and had it shut off at the main in the basement.

But yes that was brought up, the lady didn’t give me a clear answer on it but just that I own the house now, if I want to keep getting village water and septic I need to annex or they don’t legally have to supply me water. Keep in mind their law says within 90 days, it’s been 3 years and they just called last week wanting to sit down and discuss the annexation, it’s a village of about 3000 people.

The zoning of my area could change but I was told it wouldn’t be changed. Something about too expensive and time consuming.

 

[mark02tj]

BrokeFarmerJohn - I am heavily involved in the administration of a Township in the Dayton area so my questions/comments are from that perspective. My township surrounds a small city (population approx 5500). But, my comments/questions are my own and not any official representation of the Township....

You show that you're in Columbus. Would you be annexed into Columbus or one of the suburb cities?

How much land do you have? If you are on a typical "city size" lot (1/4 - 1 acre), being annexed might not make that much difference for you, other than the additional income tax. But if you have more of a "Township size" property (2+ acres) and are used to doing what you want to do, I'd fight the annexation. Depending on your "activities", you're going to have a lot more red tape (and just more crap in general) dealing with the city zoning office rather than the township zoning person. If you ever discharge firearms on your property, you're most likely no longer going to be able to do that if you end up within the city. Just something simple like building a shed will have double the paperwork and at least double the cost for permits, etc. Depending on the city, they may have an over zealous city inspector that likes to put "Violator" signs in your yard if your grass gets a little too long in their opinion. (The little city I moved from had one of those! Ugh!)

Look on the city's website for their local regulations to see about your animals. As someone mentioned, get any promises regarding keeping them in writing. You may be able to keep the ones you have, but might not be able to replace them.

Check with the county regarding your septic. You might not be able to just hook back up to it. I think the law in Ohio is that any new septic has to be a "mound system" which generally runs somewhere in the $10-15k range, from what I've heard. You might be able to "replace / repair" the existing septic with a traditional tank and leach field. I know my neighbor across the road (different township from me, however - but I think the county laws prevail with regards to septic) just replaced/repaired their septic with what looked like a traditional install.

I'm assuming that you work in a township or other non-taxing district if you're going to have to start paying city income tax if you're annexed. If you are already paying city income tax to where you work, check with the resident city to see if they have a "Resident Tax Credit" available to offset the combined amount of resident and non-resident city income taxes. If any of this applies to you, post it up (or PM me) and I'll try to give you some more information on this.

Back to the firearms issue... The city that we surround annexed several farms many years ago. One small farm (14 acres) was for sale a few years ago and I was surprised to find that it was within the city limits. I looked at the local ordinances and found that discharging firearms within the city limits was prohibited. I called the city and asked if there was any sort of "rural exemption". I was told absolutely not. I said "what if a coyote is in my chicken coop?" Was told to call the cops and wait for them to do something about the coyote. Decided to stay put!!

If your city posts the minutes of their council meetings on the website, do yourself a favor and download AND READ the minutes of the meetings for the last year or so. It will be dry and boring, but it will also tell you the attitudes of city council and how they do things. I know that I want no part of the city that our township surrounds based on what Council does!

As an accountant, I think that the advice that you've already been given to get the costs for drilling a well and addressing your septic issue is good. If there's a reasonable payback, I'd lean towards staying in the Township. Even if you have to rely on the County Sheriff's office for police protection, if you have a real emergency, ask the dispatcher to "request assistance" from the city if the sheriff is going to be a while to respond. Our local departments assist each other all the time. Our Township has its own Police Department, but there is generally only one officer on road patrol at any given time. If the other side of the road from you is the city, then the city has jurisdiction on the road itself and will (or should) assist for calls on the Township side of the road.

Double check your property taxes. Your county auditor should have a site where you can type in your address and see all of the levies that apply to you. For example, in our township, we pay our Township Police Levy, but if the city annexed me, I wouldn't pay that any more. BUT, the city might have their own police levy that might be more. You want to check the levies in place for your property (and note the millage of the levies) and then check the same information for an address for a city property that is close to you. Compare the total millage to see if your overall property taxes will go up or down if you are annexed into the city.

You might want to consider finding out when the next Township Trustee meeting is. Generally Trustees only meet once or twice a month so find out quick. I'd hate to see you have to wait another month to talk to them. But, go to the meeting and find out if they've dealt with this before and can they give you any help or advice in dealing with it. Hopefully they will be helpful. But, call to find out when the meeting is and ask if you can be on the agenda. Otherwise the Trustees might have a "visitor comments policy" that limits you to 3 or 5 minutes and they don't (legally) have to interact with you. If you're on the agenda, it gives them a heads up. Generally, smaller township's meetings are pretty relaxed though.

If it's inevitable that you're going to end up in the city, I might think about spending a few bucks with an attorney to see if you can get out of paying for any of the associated costs. Basically the costs are going to be related to all of the filings that go on with the county auditor to move you from one taxing district (Township) into another taxing district (city). There is also a pretty substantial cost for the County Engineer to reprint the local, official maps showing municipal boundaries, zoning, etc. If the city wants you to be in the city to start paying income taxes, see about having them eat some of those costs.

Good luck with this.

 

[prichard]

Didn't you ask the same thing a couple weeks ago?

 

[BrokeFarmerJohn]

BrokeFarmerJohn - I am heavily involved in the administration of a Township in the Dayton area so my questions/comments are from that perspective. My township surrounds a small city (population approx 5500). But, my comments/questions are my own and not any official representation of the Township....

You show that you're in Columbus. Would you be annexed into Columbus or one of the suburb cities?

How much land do you have? If you are on a typical "city size" lot (1/4 - 1 acre), being annexed might not make that much difference for you, other than the additional income tax. But if you have more of a "Township size" property (2+ acres) and are used to doing what you want to do, I'd fight the annexation. Depending on your "activities", you're going to have a lot more red tape (and just more crap in general) dealing with the city zoning office rather than the township zoning person. If you ever discharge firearms on your property, you're most likely no longer going to be able to do that if you end up within the city. Just something simple like building a shed will have double the paperwork and at least double the cost for permits, etc. Depending on the city, they may have an over zealous city inspector that likes to put "Violator" signs in your yard if your grass gets a little too long in their opinion. (The little city I moved from had one of those! Ugh!)

Look on the city's website for their local regulations to see about your animals. As someone mentioned, get any promises regarding keeping them in writing. You may be able to keep the ones you have, but might not be able to replace them.

Check with the county regarding your septic. You might not be able to just hook back up to it. I think the law in Ohio is that any new septic has to be a "mound system" which generally runs somewhere in the $10-15k range, from what I've heard. You might be able to "replace / repair" the existing septic with a traditional tank and leach field. I know my neighbor across the road (different township from me, however - but I think the county laws prevail with regards to septic) just replaced/repaired their septic with what looked like a traditional install.

I'm assuming that you work in a township or other non-taxing district if you're going to have to start paying city income tax if you're annexed. If you are already paying city income tax to where you work, check with the resident city to see if they have a "Resident Tax Credit" available to offset the combined amount of resident and non-resident city income taxes. If any of this applies to you, post it up (or PM me) and I'll try to give you some more information on this.

Back to the firearms issue... The city that we surround annexed several farms many years ago. One small farm (14 acres) was for sale a few years ago and I was surprised to find that it was within the city limits. I looked at the local ordinances and found that discharging firearms within the city limits was prohibited. I called the city and asked if there was any sort of "rural exemption". I was told absolutely not. I said "what if a coyote is in my chicken coop?" Was told to call the cops and wait for them to do something about the coyote. Decided to stay put!!

If your city posts the minutes of their council meetings on the website, do yourself a favor and download AND READ the minutes of the meetings for the last year or so. It will be dry and boring, but it will also tell you the attitudes of city council and how they do things. I know that I want no part of the city that our township surrounds based on what Council does!

As an accountant, I think that the advice that you've already been given to get the costs for drilling a well and addressing your septic issue is good. If there's a reasonable payback, I'd lean towards staying in the Township. Even if you have to rely on the County Sheriff's office for police protection, if you have a real emergency, ask the dispatcher to "request assistance" from the city if the sheriff is going to be a while to respond. Our local departments assist each other all the time. Our Township has its own Police Department, but there is generally only one officer on road patrol at any given time. If the other side of the road from you is the city, then the city has jurisdiction on the road itself and will (or should) assist for calls on the Township side of the road.

Double check your property taxes. Your county auditor should have a site where you can type in your address and see all of the levies that apply to you. For example, in our township, we pay our Township Police Levy, but if the city annexed me, I wouldn't pay that any more. BUT, the city might have their own police levy that might be more. You want to check the levies in place for your property (and note the millage of the levies) and then check the same information for an address for a city property that is close to you. Compare the total millage to see if your overall property taxes will go up or down if you are annexed into the city.

You might want to consider finding out when the next Township Trustee meeting is. Generally Trustees only meet once or twice a month so find out quick. I'd hate to see you have to wait another month to talk to them. But, go to the meeting and find out if they've dealt with this before and can they give you any help or advice in dealing with it. Hopefully they will be helpful. But, call to find out when the meeting is and ask if you can be on the agenda. Otherwise the Trustees might have a "visitor comments policy" that limits you to 3 or 5 minutes and they don't (legally) have to interact with you. If you're on the agenda, it gives them a heads up. Generally, smaller township's meetings are pretty relaxed though.

If it's inevitable that you're going to end up in the city, I might think about spending a few bucks with an attorney to see if you can get out of paying for any of the associated costs. Basically the costs are going to be related to all of the filings that go on with the county auditor to move you from one taxing district (Township) into another taxing district (city). There is also a pretty substantial cost for the County Engineer to reprint the local, official maps showing municipal boundaries, zoning, etc. If the city wants you to be in the city to start paying income taxes, see about having them eat some of those costs.

Good luck with this.

Thanks for taking the time to write out an informative response.

One of the suburb cities of Columbus.

I have almost 3 acres.

You have given me a good place to start and more specific things to look into outside the usual stuff.

I’m used to doing what I want, but for liability reasons I don’t shoot guns on the property, although I’m aloud to there is not a safe way I can shoot without potentially shooting towards a house, it’s not worth it. I’ll shoot a pellet gun but that’s about it.

But I will deff be contacting the trustees on their next meeting and get more informed on going back to existing septic or replacing existing.

Any way I look at this it seems like a lot of work lol.