Duetz starting problem only when hot

   / Duetz starting problem only when hot #1  

Bob999

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2002
Messages
786
Location
Eastern PA
Tractor
PT 1845, Bobcat A300, JD Trail Gator
My 1845 has intermittently failed to turn over when hot for several years. On all previous occasions I used a charger to assist and the engine started. Sometimes I found connection problems that explained why I was having the problem but recently I have not found any connection problems. A couple of weeks ago it happened but after the engine cooled it started normally. Today, even with the charger the engine would not turn over. The solenoid engages and the volt meter drops to near zero--even with a large charger attached--but the starter doesn't turn the engine. I am writing this before the engine has cooled so I don't yet know if it will start once cool. I am suspecting it is a bad starter but would appreciate any suggestions.
 
   / Duetz starting problem only when hot #2  
I have a 1445, but I think that the wiring is similar.

It could be a bad starter, but I would double check the wiring to the external solenoid and the starter.

PT has added a second solenoid to the starter circuit on the Deutz. My understanding is that the internal solenoid requires full voltage to close. So there is a starter integral to the Bosch starter, and an external solenoid. If the external solenoid doesn't close, then the internal solenoid doesn't get power, but you need both to function. I would check voltages at the two solenoids first. When my starter died, even bypassing both solenoids didn't get the engine to turn over.

I have had to replace the solenoid once (cracked support bracket), and the starter once. I have also repaired the wire to the PT solenoid more than a few times as it vibrates and cracks the crimped connector. Currently, the wire has a crimped/solder/heatshrink attachment, with a cable tie to one of the heavy gauge cables to the starter to reduce vibration at the solenoid attachment.

If I had to guess, I would bet on the wire having pulled out of the crimp, or the crimped connector being broken. My other guess would be a bad starter. I got a replacement at my local O'Reilly's/Autozone. The external solenoid was also available there.

All the best,

Peter


My 1845 has intermittently failed to turn over when hot for several years. On all previous occasions I used a charger to assist and the engine started. Sometimes I found connection problems that explained why I was having the problem but recently I have not found any connection problems. A couple of weeks ago it happened but after the engine cooled it started normally. Today, even with the charger the engine would not turn over. The solenoid engages and the volt meter drops to near zero--even with a large charger attached--but the starter doesn't turn the engine. I am writing this before the engine has cooled so I don't yet know if it will start once cool. I am suspecting it is a bad starter but would appreciate any suggestions.
 
   / Duetz starting problem only when hot #3  
The solenoid engages and the volt meter drops to near zero--even with a large charger attached--but the starter doesn't turn the engine.

Assuming the engine now won't start when cold:

Sounds like a battery with a weak cell. Battery charger will kick off if voltage drops too low to avoid a short circuit. Buy a $1.99 hydrometer (eye dropper electrolyte specific gravity measurement tool) from your local autoparts store. Test each cell by suctioning the liquid into the eyedropper. Bet you one of the cells will have 3 of 4 cells sinking. Will take you 2 minutes to do this.

Amazon.com: Custom Accessories 46665 Battery Tester: Automotive

51QHMRUtkGL._SL1280_.jpg

A battery with a weak cell will seem to be OK, and can have a no-load voltage of 12.5-13.5V, but as soon as you put a load on it, the weak cell drops down to 0V (and then reverses polarity). Voltage measurements of batteries under no load are essentially useless to determine state of charge.

Even a so-called "starting battery charger" promising 30A output won't help in this scenario. The battery charger won't be able to maintain DC voltage high enough to keep the solenoid engaged.
 
   / Duetz starting problem only when hot #4  
Agreed. I am thinking connections, then battery, then solenoid, then starter.

My tractor has a hot start problem. I have been on the phone with Deutz engineers. The finger pointing is amazing. I now have to take my fuel tank apart. On paper it makes sense that it is a fuel delivery issue, but add slope and hot and then it becomes an engine issue.

Anyway, hijack, sorry.
 
   / Duetz starting problem only when hot #5  
I had a problem like you are stating, won't start when hot. I talked to Terry and he told me it was probably the solenoid. I replaced it and have not had any starting problems since then , several years ago.
 
   / Duetz starting problem only when hot #6  
I forgot about the fuel solenoid misfunctioning. Given all of your issues, I would go with Ernemats suggestion, after checking the battery and wiring.

All the best,

Peter




I had a problem like you are stating, won't start when hot. I talked to Terry and he told me it was probably the solenoid. I replaced it and have not had any starting problems since then , several years ago.
 
   / Duetz starting problem only when hot
  • Thread Starter
#7  
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

After the engine cooled the problem remained but it was clear that the battery was at least part of the problem--it was the original battery for an 11 year old machine. Battery replaced.

In checking the wiring I first found no voltage to solenoid. In tracking this down I am embarrassed to report it was operator error--the PTO was "on".

Machine has now started but I haven't had occasion to use it to check out a hot starting situation. If anything further develops I will report further.

Thanks again.
 
   / Duetz starting problem only when hot #8  
That is why this forum is so good. By you having this problem look at all the responses. A lot of people learned from this experience, now someone soon will read this and say hey these are my symptoms and this is how I can go about fixing it. Awesome!!
 
   / Duetz starting problem only when hot #9  
Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

After the engine cooled the problem remained but it was clear that the battery was at least part of the problem--it was the original battery for an 11 year old machine. Battery replaced.

In checking the wiring I first found no voltage to solenoid. In tracking this down I am embarrassed to report it was operator error--the PTO was "on".

Machine has now started but I haven't had occasion to use it to check out a hot starting situation. If anything further develops I will report further.

Thanks again.

Glad it was simple. That PTO switch needs a buzzer that comes on when the key is turned on and the PTO switch is on. Or maybe when the PTO is on and the key is off.
 

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