elec question RE 220V outlets

phantom309 · Aug 12, 2005

Question for the elec experts out there. In my garage I have two 50A 220V outlets, one at each corner, to power welders, etc. I am careful to only use one of the outlets at a time. In fact, the one by the door is almost never used (is used only when I need to weld something outside).

If I remember right, I connected these outlets by running a separate #8 cable (two hots plus ground) to each of them from a single breaker.

I'm now starting to plan for wiring a new shop I'm putting up. It will be bigger and I'd like to have another 220V outlet or two (for a total of 3, maybe 4).

What is the best way to tie multiple 220V outlets into a single breaker? I'm thinking that I've read that it is against code to chain them together as you would 110V outlets. Is that right?

Is there a third choice beyond 1) chaining 2) connect all of them at the breaker (obviously limited by size of wire and socket on breaker)?

Don't yell at me, but If NEC says I can only run one 220V outlet per breaker, I will do it anyway. While one outlet per breaker may make sense for a stove or elec h20 heater which tend to stay put, my welders are on wheels and I want to be able to move them around!

BTW, no elec (or any other) inspection here in sticksville.

Thanks for your help.

Mark

SnowRidge · Aug 12, 2005

Why not put in separate breakers for each of your 220 Volt outlets?

phantom309 · Aug 12, 2005

I'd like to get by with a single 30/40 breaker box. With a little office/apartment with elec furnace, water heater and stove, well pump, plus lots of outlets and lights, that box will fill up fast.

I won't have room for four 220V outlet circuits. Maybe a compromise would be to use two breakers, each of which is connected to two outlets.

One other option that just hit me is to use a "splice box". In my house, the 220V cooktop and stove are powered by a single breaker. The 220 is split in two in a box near the stove.

Would that be preferable to splicing at the breaker or at the outlets?

Thanks again.

added in edit: I guess I should have first asked whether it is OK to connect multiple 220V outlets to a single breaker. I think I remember reading that it is not, but I don't know why that would be the case. I don't run a dedicated circuit and breaker for each of my 110V outlets! What is the difference? If I did manage to run two 220V welders at the same time, pulling 30A each on a 50A circuit, the breaker would get thrown. Same thing happens when wifey runs hot curlers, blow dryer and space heater in the bathroom.

?

GEB · Aug 12, 2005

I have 7 220's on 3 breakers
My building is 30X50 back on the 30ft wall is 1 for the compressor, on it's own breaker.
Both 50ft walls have 3 220 outlets each wall on a seperate breaker.
Everyone of my 220 outlets drop down off a 110 4 outlet box.
The 110 box's are 4 ft off the floor and the 220's are 2ft off the floor.
And yes I'm sure to use only 1 outlet per wall (breaker)
at a given time.
My welder and plasma cutter is on a nice cart with wheels
works very well for me.
BTW you can never have to many 110 outlets.
I ran all my conduit on the outside of my 3/4in osb walls.
I might add it's a nice clean job, and very easy to tap into if needed.
If your breaker box is small, go big, and be done with it!
I'm no expert, but had expert advice /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Gene

GEB · Aug 12, 2005

One other thing if you have a breaker box already and it's full
you can always add a box next to it maybe just for 220.
The new box would run off a 220 breaker in the old box.
I had done it this way at my old place, simply because the old
box and wire was in the wall and access was tight.
This was the simply way to add on plus free up breakers.
Gene

MikeIA · Aug 12, 2005

If you're going to do it anyways, I'd vote for the splice box. You could gain some extra depth in the receptacle box by adding a box extender. Get three lug bars(electrical supply houses sell them as extra grounding lugs for breaker boxes) with three set screws each. Each lug gets a feeder wire, a short wire for that receptacle, and the wire leading to the next box. Tape the s**t out of them, stuff them in the back of the box, and connect the receptacle to the short wires. This should hold better than split bolts or big (really big) wire nuts. I'd also recommend going up to number 6 wire.

Surplus Center used to sell a 50 amp double-throw rotary switch that I installed at work to select which of two range receptacles gets power.

phantom309 · Aug 13, 2005

( I have 7 220's on 3 breakers
My building is 30X50 back on the 30ft wall is 1 for the compressor, on it's own breaker.
Both 50ft walls have 3 220 outlets each wall on a seperate breaker.
)

Sounds like what I'm thinking. A separate breaker for anything that is going to "permanantly" sit on an outlet, but not for all of the outlets which will rarely be used.

I bought the biggest breaker box they sold at Home Depot. It has 30 slots, with 10 of them taking the piggyback breakers. I've heard to try not to use the piggybacks, but today when I went to check out the box in the house, it has 100% of the 110V breakers piggybacks! So if necessary, I'll try to put some lightly loaded 110 circuits on the piggybacks and that could free up enough to allow for an extra 220 breaker. I'm thinking of 2 breakers and 4 outlets.

Also thanks MikeIA for the tip on the three lug bars for a splice box. I'll do that!

Thanks again.

Mark

DTCOOPER · Aug 15, 2005

Phantom,
Consider this.. Your bedroom in your house has multiple 15a receptacles in the walls. Depending on when the house was built, it is fed by either a 15 or 20 amp breaker..
You can put 50 receptacles on a single circuit if you so wish. So long as you protect that circuit with a circuit breaker (fuse) that is rated less than the rated ampacity of the conductors.
It does not matter if you tried to plug 50 welders into those 5o receptacles.. So long as your breaker is working properly, you will not be ABLE to over current the wire. As far as using ground bars and taping the s**t out of them.... I would suggest against that. I sell some small "POLARIS" connectors which in essence are rubber coated distribution blocks.. They are pretty fool proof and safe to use. If you insist on using the ground bar method as netioned above... Be sure to get a roll of rubber tape as well as good quality electrical tape.. Please do not buy WalMart brand PVC tape... get some premium vinyl tape which will not harden and peel off in 2 years. If you need to buy anything electrical, drop me an IM. I will sell you the stuff at cost and ship it to you via UPS.
I work for the largest electrical distributor in the world. We have over 800 stores around the world. Let me know what you may need..
That goes for anyone of my other TBN brothers or sisters too !! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Daniel
EDIT - As far as someone suggesting against using piggy back breakers.. There is NO REASON to not use them. They are a fully rated breaker that is rated for HACR and any other kind of load there is. They also have an inverse time element just like a full size breaker does. Here in the Dallas area, people are building a lot of small to mid size track style homes. (cookie cutters)
Our number one selling load center (panel) is a ITE G3040B1200. Which sounds exactly like what you bought..
Just so you know... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

JohnSinVA · Aug 15, 2005

( In my garage I have two 50A 220V outlets, one at each corner, to power welders, etc. I am careful to only use one of the outlets at a time. In fact, the one by the door is almost never used (is used only when I need to weld something outside).

If I remember right, I connected these outlets by running a separate #8 cable (two hots plus ground) to each of them from a single breaker. )

I hope you ran a separate #6 cable to each outlet, or else you should swap out the 50A outlets (and breakers) for 40A. IIRC, #6 is minimum wire size for a 50A circuit.

sparkkky · Aug 16, 2005

You guys scare the crap out of me! Half of my work is cleaning up after do it yourselfers.

You can run a larger cable, like a #4 and tap off of it up to ten foot(need to check my book) then you need to set a disconnect at every plug which will get costly fast.

Best to run dedicated circuits on there own breakers, I will not do it any other way!